If God, through some kind of inner working of irresistible grace, is going to convince his unconditionally chosen elect to believe the Gospel regardless of your effort, then is there any rational reason to persist all day long in attempting to persuade the lost? See Frank's response during a recent conversation with Dr. Leighton Flowers of Soteriology 101, and then watch the rest of the interview here! ? https://bit.ly/3VLt1Az
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I have spoken to many Determinists and tried to understand their point of view and reasoning. I am unconvinced by the deterministic model of the 5- Point Calvinist system for many reasons. One principal reason is due to the counterintuitive reading of the Bible. If everything is predetermined (i.e. God meticulously micromanages everything, and human desires and actions were decreed by God) then the entirety of human history is a farce. Jesus wouldn't actually be saving us from our sins because they wouldn't be "our" sins if God willed that we should do them. The entirety of the Bible showing God's frustration with Israel and unrepentance would be farcical at best, schizophrenic at worst.
It also seems strange to me that Determinists would be upset if anyone should disagree with them because desiring to persuade someone is to assume that the individual is a free moral agent with the ability to be persuaded. If the individual is not persuaded, then God simply predestined that they should not be persuaded.
After all, if Determinism is true, then God simply predestined that I should believe in libertarian free will.
@robertneil4559 Says:
Predestination proves the sovereignty of God.
@kvelez Says:
1:36
Cool answer
@J0e1. Says:
As someone who believs in predestination i go all the way more in preaching to a hardened soul cause God is most glorified when the struggles is harder.
And I always felt not believing in predestination leads to vain evangilism cause you give up on people who seem to keep rejecting the gospel.
@pandeledaniel816 Says:
A theology that elevates man is wrong. Why tell people they have abilities when only few respond to the gospel ?
Arminian and provisionist theology are not clear, because they're not clearly involved in the plan of God. Why ? Because all plan that God wants to fulfill is essentially stopped by the human freewill, wich in fact, is not so free, because it needs an enabling to produce something good.
I observe a certain lack of honesty by not utilizing passages of the bible to strongly contradict calvinism, wich is not the case, because they're to much passages that support predestination, so here we have personal opinions that have no biblical support.
@adburltv Says:
Why do people choose to believe predestination? Um, because it's actually in the Bible? I still haven't heard a counterargument to why "To those he foreknew he also predestined..." doesn't mean exactly what Calvinists interpret it to mean
@elizabethking5308 Says:
I'm currently a Calvinist but wrestling with the idea of free will and how it works with predestination, and I Googled "Frank Turek on predestination" (because some things he's said about free will have stuck with me), and--how dissapointing that this is the first video I found. Literally tearing down Calvinists rather than doing your best (or even your littelest) to educate. I suggest you consider that Calvinists may be resolved about predestination because IT'S IN THE BIBLE! I want to hear what 'free will folk' say about SCRIPTURE. Sheesh. Talk about an echo chamber. 🙄
@user-fy8rv4hg8v Says:
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
@nazareneoftheway3936 Says:
Can anyone from the comments give me the verses which talk about this so I can go read them in their original languages to parse out things and read the prior and later context?
@ashtonsawyer9367 Says:
"The secret things belong to the Lord."
@ashtonsawyer9367 Says:
God caused evil, yet He is not responsible for it. One of the great mysteries of God and the Bible.
@ashtonsawyer9367 Says:
I also think the Calvinism seems to deal with the problem of evil more effectively than the opposite side. God is not the author of evil. He cannot sin or even be tempted to sin, but God clearly allowed sin to enter the world by giving angels and humans the ability to do so. Calvinism seems to better support that fact that God has complete sovereignty over evil and even our own "free", willing choices.
@ashtonsawyer9367 Says:
The whole reason we preach the Gospel is for the elect. We go out and share the Gospel in hope that the elect will hear it. I think Calvinism is often misunderstood, but I also acknowledge that it is a complicated/touchy issue.
@Mike27109 Says:
From what I read in Scripture, it supports both predestination and the other side of that. God will not turn away anyone who seeks Him out, but there are some who were “appointed to salvation” in Scripture when they heard the gospel and put their faith in Christ. You see both examples in Scripture. I think they go hand and hand with each other.
@skirtonbear1 Says:
I’ve heard that argument from the earliest days of studying, but know that accepting predestination doesn’t hinder my evangelism even an iota; it does free me to share away knowing that in the end their salvation and conviction are in His hands.
@singwithpowerinfo5815 Says:
If a god truly created free will, it would be impossible for that god to see the future decisions of man. If that god could see the future, a theistic determinism would be the best one could do, and that is not free will.
@fhfbjufhwflpkpldxeh6070 Says:
free will is real, quantum physics and particle uncertainty proves it, plus literally every LEGITIMATE BRANCH of christianity (orthodox and catholic) supports free will
@RobertEMason Says:
You place far too much importance on the role man plays in God's plan. Preach to everyone cause you don't know who God has predestined. It's not up to you. You are overlooking many scriptures which clearly display the foundation of this belief. It's not a matter of intelligence, but of seeing God as Almighty
@RyabThatBaconGuy Says:
The main thing I took away after learning and coming to believe on predestination after most of my life not realizing it was even a thing was that predestination gives the power back to God, which makes sense.
@repentant Says:
What if they’re choosing the one that is they believe the truth.
Let me quote Jesus here
“No man can come to the Son unless it’s given to him by the Father”
You really believed Pastor Frank that all believers in predestination, are doing so out of laziness.
I find that hard to believe.
You think it’s out of ignorance a lot of the people were talking about has spent their lives devoted to the study of scripture.
And yet you believe that you had enough goodness inside of you to choose God/Jesus Christ.
Doesn’t that make you more special ?
I am not a Calvinist but I do believe in predestination, however I don’t think Calvinists are lazy, or ignorant.
@geralddarkobekoe Says:
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
@A777F Says:
The most concerning thing about Calvinism isn't the lack of motivation. For me, that's the constant uncertainty about salvation. You can't possibly know if you're elect or not. You just can't. You constantly see on the news new Christians, who are honest, humble, intelligent and very powerful in their faith, who fall away and resign Christianity. If they weren't ever elect with all of that fruit in their lives, what chances do any of us have for any meaningful certainty? And it's not just about you. You can never know if your children are going to be saved, because it's not up to you raising them in faith and in proper Church environment at all. Either they are elect, or they're not. Statistically speaking, you have absolutely insignificant chances that they're possibly gonna be elect. I don't think I'd ever have children at all if I was a Calvinist. Why would I ever want to create something that is most likely going to suffer hell for eternity regardless of anything I can possibly do? Let alone a person I love more than myself? That just sounds like voluntary torture.
@Mynameisjoof Says:
This is a pretty poor interpretation of the reformed view of soteriology. If you want to understand it invite someone that can explain it
@ericfehrman Says:
This is so embarrassingly bad.
@apok1523 Says:
I disagree with this in the book of Isaiah God says he is the author author of evil
King James Version
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
I don't believe that this is a fair interpretation The difference comes with the religiosity The other side of the aisle will tell you you have to you have to Making you your own savior and trying to add to your salvation our argument is that man is so wicked and God is so holy that we are dead in sin that is why we say God did God does God will's
I repeat dead people are dead in sin like born dead unaware of the sin a fish in water who calls you who chooses who we believe God does it all if salvation was 99.9 man he would lose it leaving us with only one option FORGIVE ME LORD A SINNER but who put that there before the foundation of the earth God did I did nothing remember Jacob I have loved and esau I have hated I think apologetics is trying to cover for God he is the truth his name defends itself and I love Frank I know how brilliant he is he gave me that last line and I am saying it now to him we get frustrated when we can't reach people with the gospel But we know God is the author of salvation Beginning middle end That is the good news I truly believe if God removed his spirit from anyone you no longer see them as morally wrong as much a you see who they truly are in their unredeemed state as soon as I heard his name I knew he was the TRUTH he put that in me before the foundation of the earth he is already at the end his sovereignty is his will be done on earth as it is in heaven frank knows better than anyone that it is not a logical problem it is a heart problem and he know's something isn't Morally wrong because man says it is morally wrong but because God says they are God is the standard there is no righteousness inside us outside of him bless you Frank not attacking him Just the logically this is Truth
@newcreationinchrist1423 Says:
Never was big on Calvinism. The only thing that I like that they have is their Lordship salvation doctrine. Salvation requires us making him our Lord and I believe that's true because of Romans 10: 9,10. Other than that I don't agree with their version of predestination and several other things that they believe. 🙏
@i-am-a-pseudo-intellectual Says:
I am 64. I started out as a fundamentalist believing in free will. But then I couldn't find the answers to all the passages that talked about predestination. Then I considered the nature of God being timeless and man being confined to time. Even if you get rid of the word predestination you have to accept foreknowledge. If God-created a universe knowing all things it would come to pass it's essentially the same thing. I'm good with accepting predestination and responsibility. After all God knew me before I was in my mother's womb, right? I think it also boils down to what people mean by free and will. We know we have a will but is it really free if we cannot will what we will? And yes those of us that believe in predestination believe those who don't are predestined to not believe. 🙂 However if you believe in the same Christ then we are brothers.
@dktn8080 Says:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
@dumisaralane Says:
I am yet to hear of a Calvinistic preacher or evangelist saying "oh well they are not interested in the gospel because they are not God's elect". That would be a damaging attitude to have, and this seems to be implied in this video and I think that is unfortunate and reckless.
The fact is faithful bible preachers preach the gospel because that is the commandment from the Lord Himself Matt 28: 19-20, also see Romans 10:14-15.
Holding dear to the doctrine of election does not make one dismissive of those who reject the gospel, it makes one all the more faithful in preaching the gospel to anyone because we don't know who the elect are and yet we understand the importance of the elect hearing the preaching of the gospel from the sent ones prior to experiencing God's saving grace here on earth.
@isaacparks1105 Says:
It is God who saves us. Flowers is obsessed with denouncing Reformed theology to the point of ignoring our common Savior. I would encourage all people to read your Bible, trust in Christ, and don't get obsessed with distractions.
@frankcardano4142 Says:
What an incompetent fool this god is.
It’s almost like men made this whole thing up.
@shenanigansofmannanan Says:
Azazel is attributed as the creator of Sin in the book of Enoch.... The Bible and Gospel are required and sufficient for coming to Fear The Lord and for Salvation .... there are other books to answer the broader questions that would mentally cripple new believers and give the Godless yet another person to blame for their sins but the actual person responsible....themselves...
@joshuakohlmann9731 Says:
It doesn't make a lot of sense that anyone should _choose_ to believe in determinism. Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
@kennycouch4091 Says:
Never believed Calvinism. They're so legalistic. The whole fruit inspector thing bugs me too. As if we as fallible humans have any ground to stand on to pick at other people's fruit. Very legalistic.
@chrisgamboa317 Says:
Leighton talks about calvinists who are just in an echo chamber, but he’s also in an echochamber as well
@chrisgamboa317 Says:
The bible is not about man’s will but God’s sovereign will. Frank Turek is way out of his league when it comes to theology. he has read more apologetics, and philosophy than theology.
@singwithpowerinfo5815 Says:
Utter nonsense. It’s amazing to me that these myths and lore from our primitive, ancient, superstitious, naive past are still alive and well today. Two grown men talking about these matters with the ignorance of centuries gone by.
Hopefully they will talk about the truth of dragons and unicorns in their next video together.
@asus6652 Says:
Can god die
@Niko_Kapanen82 Says:
If some "Christian" decides not to preach the Gospel because he thought that God has already predetermined everything so there is no point to do it, then this "Christian" is not born-again.
@mywong2411 Says:
I notice that Calvanists like preaching to people who already identify as Christians. . .
@MrTheclevercat Says:
Religious people are intellectually sterile
@shiloh2001 Says:
It's the same reason we keep praying knowing God has already decided from the beginning if He would say either a "yes" or "no". Even though you don't believe in predestination, you're still faced with the same problem. A person's outcome is foreknown by God even with their free will. Why preach to someone whose end is foreknown to be hell?
@trustenbaker8766 Says:
I read this, or heard it somewhere before concerning predestination.
Your standing in front of a door. And on the door it reads, " Whosoever will may come " and if you walk through that door and turn around on the back it reads, " chosen from the foundation of the World "
I have come to believe that apparent contradictions point to greater understanding for everyone who is willing to search it out.
Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
If that's you let me know, I might have something you'll want to see. That is if your heart aches for the lost and your a little lost when you think about hell, and how a God of love could allow it. If that's you, I think I have something you'll want to know.
@InfoArtistJKatTheGoodInfoCafe Says:
God wrote the script. That's why it's called the script-ure. Script-"sure". The movie is done and in "the can". God knows the whole "movie". But we are still in it. God introduced free will (before Adam and Eve sinned) so we make free choices as we play our part in the "movie". God doesn't make Calvinists believe in Calvinism. Calvinists choose to. You are ultimately responsible for your choices not God.
@youtubeaccount5153 Says:
I am surprised. This isn’t a very respectful presentation. It’s not horrible. But just not very respectful of honestly, deeply held convictions. And I lean towards free will. Never heard of predestination until recently.
The Bible definitely has strong verses of predestination. And free will.
I see it like this: they are different sides of the same coin. They both have truth. And only God can reconcile those two seemingly contradictory concepts.
I won’t be the least bit surprised when I get to Heaven, learn the answer, and think, Oh. That is so simple and makes so much sense.
@TimothyFish Says:
What I find is that many of the people who call themselves Calvinists don't really believe Calvinism. When they share the gospel, they believe that they can persuade people, just like they believe that they can persuade people to believe Calvinism. The people who stop to think about the implications of Calvinism tend to stop being Calvinists.
@rorywynhoff1549 Says:
Please read Dave Hunt's book, What Love is This?
Calvanism defaces God who is Love.
@duwhall Says:
This is a very timely video for me. I've been seeing a lot more reform/Calvinist material on Youtube recently and it challenges what I have always believed, but I've never had anyone answer me as to why it's important that I believe this piece of doctrine or how it should affect my walk as a Christian. Thank you!
@TheRastacabbage Says:
What a horrible God. Created you without the ability to gain salvation. I despise so called 'Christianity'. Try reading what scripture actually teaches
@mothornton9127 Says:
Jesus would not have said to go make disciples if it was a waste of time.
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