How do Calvinists answer the problem of evil, and how does it differ from those who believe in free will? See Frank's response during a recent conversation with Dr. Leighton Flowers of Soteriology 101, and then watch the rest of the interview here! ? https://bit.ly/3VLt1Az
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#Theology #Soteriology #Apologetics
Calvinism is the Manichean Gnosticism from Augustine who followed the philosophy of Mani for ten years before he came to the church. In Augustines confessions he states that he was glad he encountered Gnosticism before he came to the bible. He said if he came to the Bible first he may not have known about gnosticism and that would have been a shame because gnosticism is indispensable in interpretation of the Bible. Calvins institutes are a reiteration of all of Augustines philosophy. Calvinism is on the level of Mormonism.
@jimmyoverbee5218 Says:
I have a problem here, twice you said God thought, in other words he just wasn't sure what would occur, God doesn't think certain things will or will not happen, he knows!! That's all.
@SweatyDerp Says:
I think most of the problem with calvinism is that its very contradicting and forms impossibilities. Calvinists make it very clear that I supposedly can’t choose God because of my corrupt free will, which keep in mind, is the limitation, and then get absolutely bewildered and puzzled why anyone would be so adamant on not repenting. Secondly, most of the problem is when I (supposedly) don’t have the ability to repent yet God is the one that still expects me to do what I can’t do, as if I possessed some supernatural strength on my own. If calvinists consider that fair then there’s absolutely no way that when I tell them to fly that they call it unfair. Because in this circumstance God is asking the same off of me. Some calvinists may argue that it’s not that I’m limited to being unable to choose God with my free will, but rather it’s because my free will is corrupt and won’t choose God. That’s the limitation. I so-called have a “free will” that’s just corrupt and yet calvinists still blame me for not choosing God when clearly I had no choice on my free will and have absolutely no power to change it yet calvinists still say that it’s somehow my fault that I can’t choose Jesus? Lastly calvinists make a clear point of how if the unelected were to choose God, that they would have a supposed “bragging right”. The problem is, is that that’s exactly what God wants the unelected to do. They’re not exempt from following God, no one is, so apart from being so-called elect the only other way for the unelected to ever fulfill what God wants from them is to beat their chest and say to God that they’re just better than everyone else because they somehow managed to choose God. So that would mean that God IS the one that expects the unelect to be prideful. Now if anyone comments don’t dare say that its hypothetical, so its irrelavant, because I’m not being hypothetical. If that’s what some of you really believe and that’s what God really wants from us then his requests become unreasonable and illogical and irrelavant regardless if we could fulfill it or not as that’s what he expects from us, no matter what.
@solomonnallapu Says:
Thank you for sharing your views.
As a Christian who believes in the doctrines of grace, I do not believe that non-Calvinistic soteriology will lead to hell. However, my major issue with non-Calvinists is that they are gradually introducing liberal, open theology, and lgbtq+ views into the church. Yes, there are moral failings among Calvinistic preachers, but congregations and preachers (with the exception of a few) with non-Calvinistic soteriology appear to be very liberal in their thinking. Calvinistic preachers, on the other hand, are excellent Bible expositors.
@JesusistheonetrueGod Says:
So please explain to me how you won't be able to boast about making the right choice.
@kentheengineer592 Says:
U realize if we obeyed god it would be robotic right, the purpose is not love, the purpose is how to live sustainably, good is only good when tested to purify itself which means for god to be absolutely good there must be equivalently absolutely evil which like god is also purified same process & like god does share commonalities otherwise its a problem of why is there good but no evil
@joeluna2930 Says:
To Leighton or anyone available: How does Acts 13:48 support Calvinism?
@PatrickTube644 Says:
Turek should take James White's challenge to come on the Dividing Line. That way his strawmen arguments against Calvinism would easily be answered and he would be schooled just like Flowers was schooled by Dr. White in their debate on Romans 9 that I attended.
@fritzdeves2740 Says:
You believed in Sovereignty of God but u didn't understand calvinism? IMPOSSIBLE! You don't understand sovereignity of God at all. "Evaluate your theology"
@SchrodingersCoin Says:
I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what predestination entails. At least from the view of augustinian teachings. It's an easy thing for a calvinist to describe, by simply saying that since everyone is sinful, God only need take a step back and withdraw his protection, and evil will do what evil does. Predestination is not providence, predestination only concerns who is elect and effectually called, it has nothing to do with providence or any other matter.
@dannyh.2861 Says:
Frank has very shallow theology. He's even open to the idea of the world being millions and billions of years old. That's ridiculous. He's a great apologist, but terrible theologian.
@christisking3099 Says:
Allowing depravity is not the same as “using evil”. Men in their arrogance want to be in control. “I chose God”. “I have few will to choose him or reject him”. Satan was no different than us in the sense that God gave Satan over to a depraved state of mind.
@daddada2984 Says:
Stay away from calvinism & arminianism.
Stay away from fanaticism of men.
Follow Jesus, become a Christian.
Identify yourself with Jesus Christ not with fallible men like calvin or arminiuns.
@bretth8342 Says:
James White would love to have a discussion on God’s Will from the text of scripture with Frank Turek. 😀
@bretth8342 Says:
God’s Will > man’s will
@TooLegit_ToQuit Says:
‘It seems to me …’.
That’s all I needed to hear. 😬
@lawrencestanley8989 Says:
While God is properly said to ordain, and thus be the ultimate cause of all things (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36, James 4:13-15) —even evil— (cf. Revelation 17:17, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, 1 Kings 22:19-23 / 2 Chronicles 18:18-22) He is never the proximate, or efficient cause of evil, and scripture regards only the proximate or efficient cause of evil as the chargeable or blameworthy party.
In the following passages, we see God actively determining, decreeing, setting, predestining, or sending men to perform an action, and for those men who are doing what God has set them to do, it is a sin, an evil act, and they could not have done otherwise; God is in control of the men performing the action, and yet He is innocent of sin, and those performing the sinful actions are morally accountable for sin: Genesis 50:20, Job 1:13-15, 17, 21, Isaiah 10:5-6, Judges 9:22-23, 1 Samuel 2:25, 16:14, 18:10, 19:9, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Psalm 105:24-25, Proverbs 16:4, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 2:8-10, Romans 9:22, Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28.
The Biblical writers never hesitate to say that God raises up sin and evil, yet they never accuse Him of wrongdoing; while God ordains the actions of free moral agents, he never coerces them to act wickedly (God does not make people evil); rather, they act according to their own fallen freedom of inclination in carrying out what God ordains, and are therefore chargeable for their offense.
@meshow631 Says:
If God predetermines the eternal fate of those saved and lost, it becomes a sentence and not a choice, whether good for one or bad for the other. To have choice requires an alternative selection, but to have no choice is like a court order, a sentence, for the lost an eternal hell with no option or mercy. Either Christ died for the sins of the whole world and paid a debt that was applied to those not to be chosen, would it be a waste of mercy? It, His Blood, being for the few who would be chosen to enter into the narrow way. How can God say “I place before you life or death choose you this day…” that would be a selection, giving choice and not a sentence, a judgement. Ty.
@henrka Says:
As much I disagree with Calvinism, and I wholeheartedly do, this criticism is completely off base. To state that Calvinists affirm that God gives impetus to evil is utterly false, to state that Calvinists deny free will is utterly false. The will of man is free, and freely chooses .Christ or chooses to sin, every Calvinist I know affirms this, at the same time God is absolutely sovereign over everything including the salvation of sinners.
@Elessar_II Says:
This is an extremely simplistic interpretation of Calvinism to the point that it creating a straw man argument. There is a distinction between the created state of man and the fallen state of man that is being overlooked.
@gamma3563 Says:
Soul: Ones character or personality that gives reason to the way one thinks/make choices. (Definition for the sake of argument)
-If we have unique given souls meaning if everyone had the same life (One lives anothers life) but made different choices there soul is unique.
-Or our souls are molded by circumstances/experience meaning if we are to have the same life we would all react the same way throughout it.
-Conclusively, neither way does one have a true choice in their eternal dwelling. Even if it was both. But rather they are set on given paths.
-This begs the question if one is truly responsible for their actions if they never got to choose their path to begin with. Rather they enact the way they were created and free will is the ability to contemplate other choices or decisions but not choose between. Or even if one has free will they only decide choices within the given path. (MTW 11:21-24) (Possibly Jeremiah 1:5 This case might just be his calling)
-Paul argues in romans 9 that what right does pottery have to argue or say the potter is in the wrong. However, what makes this difficult is the fact that God claims to be holy, just, and good. While God certainly has special rights as a creator to do what he wants. Some of what he does seem contradicting and possibly hypocritical. This makes loving God difficult even if all his teaching are good. Analogy may help understand my thoughts: If I create a robot with coding that I know would eventually do harm and start making mistakes in certain circumstances from what I created it to be. And have the robot go through those circumstances. How am I not responsible for it? Perhaps it seems some really were created for evil. But that wouldn’t be very good would it?
(These we’re my thoughts from several months ago. But I struggle with this dilemma often)
@1drummachine20 Says:
Bam! The word love cannot exist in a Calvinist view.
@thekosmickat Says:
I could say so much but ill keep it shorter than id like. The difference between robots and us according to calvinism is that we are aware of things and experience things. Robots do not. Things like love, anger, joy, fear, and so on. Secondly, if you can believe that we wont sin in heaven but yet we still have free will, your whole idea that sin is a necessary result of free will is contradictory. If we can really have free will without sin then why didn't God make it that way? Then its no longer a matter of "he thought it was worth it" to have sin for the sake of preserving free will. (Edit: to be fair, perhaps you dont believe that we will have free will in heaven or perhaps you dont believe we will be sin free there, in which case you dont have a contradiction. Im just assuming that you believe we will have free will in heaven AND be sin free, which is a contradiction) The fact is that both free will believers and deniers must cope with the reality that sin exists because God has a purpose for it.
@grandconjunct Says:
The darkside of John Calvinism's doctrines of (limited ) grace >
1). Totally determined depravity
2). Unconditional damnation
3) Irresistible damnation
4), Limited grace ( really no grace at all )
5). Perseverance of the damned ( Once damned always damned )
@Pilgrim1979 Says:
Frank misrepresents What Calvinists believes and fails to understand free will. God is free but even God himself can't choose do things contrary to his nature. God cannot lie, God cannot contradict himself he must punish sin so even God who is totally free has things he can't do due to his Holy nature. Humans cannot choose any spiritual good due to their fallen nature. Arminians are obsessed with Man's "free will" but don't even understand that the will is in bondage to sin. Man is not free he is a prisoner and is not free until Christ frees him. 1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? " God makes one to differ from another. If you believe it's because you where chosen by God from before the foundation of the earth. Intellectual pride is also on display in this video. The secret things belong unto God. We will not in this lifetime understand the origin of Evil.
@michaelwaters6829 Says:
It's actually not a matter of allowance. It's a matter of requirement. (Axiomatic Reason: observer effect ). Free-Will of Humans and Angels allows God to also have free will (grace, love, mercy, etc, and also all the "treasures of darkness"[From Isaiah 45:3]). This is due to his Holiness (separateness). By defying his own holiness in the creation of beings other than himself that could reason as he, he was granting them and himself the first act of "will" that was separate from his mechanical nature. To be created in God's Shadow is to have the capacity for Good and Evil as well as the imagination of creative power. (Ref. Matthew Henry vol 5; John 1:4, "LIfe and Light" as conscience). That act of defiance against his own nature required redemption of tort or "reconciliation" which naturally was his wrath against and the destruction of all things that were in conflict with his holiness (us). His will (grace) held back his nature (law) for a time but when he wrought the act, he had already thought of a plan of reconciliation. The infinite Holy God would need an infinite holy reconciliation (sacrifice) so he himself would have to stand in the gap for this. "Slain from the foundations of the Earth". But this only works if those Wills that were created in defiance to his nature, align with his will. "be ye holy for I am holy saith the Lord." So those that choose "Yahwah is our salvation", Jesus, will have a place in Gods Will. But those that choose God's Nature will only have his darkness. Everyone gets a choice. Everyone is appointed once to die, and then the judgment. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
I had a discussion with a Calvinist once and his conclusion was that "it's the will of God that we sin." He just flat-out said it. Galatians 2:17 rebukes such nonsense. You never ever, ever make Christ the Minister of Sin. Christ came to reconcile sinners unto himself. "ministry of reconciliation" the bible says. The debt that you owe God for existing, God came down himself to redeem it. God actually never asks us to do anything he would not do himself. He is the leader that we can truly follow. He took up the cross, submitted his will, and sacrificed his nature, and so can we.
@enas_mathetes Says:
Although I do not agree with you on multiple doctrines, I enjoy your videos and overall content and understand your philosophical views, even though your philosophic world view clearly place mans actions and will over and above Gods in salvation, however on this one I must say that either 1.) You have not truly listened to any of the great doctrines of grace divines, or as you and many others call them calvinists, I would content that these views clearly predate Calvin as Luther's justification doctrine came from his rediscovery of Augustine's own teachings and translation of justification on Romans 1. Because there are many 'robust' answers to the 'problem of evil' or 2. ) You are being dishonest by actually stating that no one has given a 'robust' answer to this issue. I would really hope it's the former but with your level of study and intellect I doubt that level of ignorance and fear it may be the latter. Now for you to speak to flowers, this guy is all kinds of wrong on so many levels and it would seem that you are speaking to people out of confirmation bias., again I my be wrong and pray that I am, but this seems to me to be your consistent through line on certain doctrine/ ideas. He claims to be a former calvinist yet consisently strawman's historical 'calvinistic views'. You probably will not see this or respond and that's ok, but maybe it will aid someone else in challenging you on this and hopefully get you to respond or consider your extrabiblical view. I stopped this video .39 secs in for this comment and will now finish the video. God bless.
EDIT..... finished the video. Your mistake, as I see it, comes down to the question of will. If I may I would recommend that you might look into Augustine, his prayer that sparked pelagius' outrage and follow up with Edwards great book on 'The Freedom of the Will', particularly on how exquisitely he explains the will and choice. I will end with that unless engaged, God bless you and your ministry for all the kingdom focused work that you do.
@RonJDuncan Says:
My answer is that foreknowledge =/= fatalism. God foreknows our choices because He exists outside of the space/time continuum. Once we account for that, this more readily fall into place, in my view. He does not direct us to make the choices we make - because that would make God the author of sin and that concept does not hold up Scripturally.
To that end the matter of elect comes down to the idea that God foreknew and just as we choose Him, He also chose us.
@vanDelen Says:
Makes a lot of sense...but I saw many situations when God "chased" people for many years untill they got saved. And there are some kind of people He just "leaves alone".
Thank God he didn't respected my bad decisions and interfered in my life till I had to surrender. Does anyone here feel the same?
@Rocket211TT Says:
Yet no Scripture given...
@jirensentry7609 Says:
Regarding Satan, he developed sin in his heart over time by thinking he could usurp the glory of God. He thought being equal with God was something he could grasp and rise above.
@theendwillcome7 Says:
Hi good mornin’. Been saved since last weekend of November of 1997. Not a Calvinist. I am a Christian.
@dastanjan320 Says:
Can someone explain the differences în theology between baptism and calvinism?
@princeofpeaceproductions3506 Says:
What did people do before Calvin…. The worship of this man is idolatry… if I were to say I have 5 points and you must believe in them..I would be called a false teacher… yet Calvin is deified…who by the way burned people at the stake for not following his religious rules… stick with Jesus…
@brettjern3264 Says:
If we don't have freewill God is more evil than he is loving and that's not my God
@RodMartinJr Says:
Conflating God with Christ is a forgivable sin! Such blasphemy is understandable given the 1,700 tradition pounded into our collective minds. But Christ made it clear on numerous occasions that he was NOT God, but instead the primary servant OF God. Big difference. And how much more can we do when we *_know Truth,_* rather than a traditional, "comfortable" lie?
*_"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me"_* (John 14:1 ESV). So, here, Christ makes it abundantly clear that you are to believe, on the one hand, God Almighty, and, on the other hand, Jesus Christ, God's chosen representative.
Now, the *_only_* unforgivable sin is in *_mis-defining_* the Holy Spirit by taking that which is in each of us -- the spark of divinity created in the Image of God -- and placing it on a pedestal in some false, triune godhead. *_That which needs to be saved is no longer to be saved, because it is now being FALSELY defined as part of God._*
God created evil for a very specific purpose and, yes, it has to do with free will. Part of that evil is distorting Truth for political purposes. And when the church councils *_VOTED_* on the meaning of scripture in AD 381, inventing "trinity," they committed the *_greatest sin in the entire universe!_*
@gregorylgreenwoodii Says:
I'm almost done with all of John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian religion. I'm on chapter 14 of book 4. Evil is not a problem in reformed theology as Calvin wrote in his Institutes, that is to say the problem of evil is solved within John Calvin's theology in his Institutes, consistent with Augustine, consistently exigeted from the holy scriptures. Calvin never denied humans and non-human persons (spirits and "nephilim" offspring from the "sons of the god"/ disobedient spirits who "left their first habitation") have volition, as neither does the holy scriptures.
Yet and still the problem after all is said and done in the debate concerning this subject matter is… humans struggle to comprehend and fully grasp just how our voluntary choices (be it sin or obedience) are still voluntary given the Lord's decree (the decreed will of the Lord) that this or that sin is to occur; contrary to his prescriptive will (that is to say his commandments); informing us what we humans ought to do.
It comes down to a simple question… will we use our ability to reason, which he gave us (that is to say our god-given intellect) to rightly interpret what the Lord is telling us about his perfect will; both his prescribed commandments, and his decreed will (which is secret and not revealed; closed in the heart of his spirit) for what he has decreed to happen to his glory, and the justification and salvation of his people, whom he has elected… or are we going to critique and ridicule his revelation (and those humans who rightly reiterate his revelation according to the holy scriptures) about his will (both his prescribed will and decreed will) because it does not fit our preferences or is beyond our intellectual limits?
Remembering that the Lord said to us humans in the scroll of Yeshayahu (Isaiah), "My ways are superior to your ways, and my thoughts are superior to your thoughts".
And Moshe (Moses) said in the Torah in Deuteronomy according to the commands from the Lord, "The secret things belong to Yahuah our god, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law."
Peace to you, and may 𐤄𐤅𐤄𐤉 (Yahuah) bless you and be with you in the name of 𐤇𐤉𐤔𐤌𐤄 𐤏𐤔𐤅𐤄𐤉 (Yahusha the Messiah).
@perzetterberg7907 Says:
You do not represent a calvinist perspective truthfully.
@arthur6157 Says:
1:34 FT: ...that opens up the possibility of evil...
No, Dr. Turek, it opens up the CERTAINTY of evil. God infallibly foreknew what MUST occur IF He created as He intended to create. Again, you have ALL the same problems you think the Reformed have - but you just haven't figured that out yet.
@bugatti99vun Says:
For Calvinists who still hold strongly to their view, here, John 3:16.
Why would it says, for God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life. WHOSOEVER. WHOEVER. SHALL NOT.
This verse doesn't make sense if Calvinism is true.
Why bother having this verse if everything is determined.
Yes, God can is sovereign, He can have mercy on whomever He want to have mercy. Cause He's the potter, we are the clay. But Calvinism is for people which God want to use, like Abraham, Moses, Isaac and many more, PHARAOH as well. Many people would argue it's not right for God to harden Pharaoh's heart. Let me tell u, God can, and He totally can. Like what the bible says, God is the potter, we are the clay.
Plus, pharaoh himself hardened his heart first, only then God use him to fulfill His 10 plagues, so that the whole world would know who is the real God almighty.
I hope this helps.
All the best guys
@arthur6157 Says:
00:54 FT: People will ask, why did God allow Satan to sin? And the Calvinist will have to say ...God didn't just allow him to sin but He wanted him to sin.
That's right. On the Reformed view, God had a good purpose in mind when He decreed and determined Satan would sin. On the theologically Deformed view, God sat passively by wringing His hands as Satan sinned - even though He infallibly foreknew Satan certainly would sin if He created His creation the way He intended to create it - which He did anyway knowing Satan would fall. Therefore, ALL of the sin and evil caused by Satan is purposeless, on the Deformed view. On the Reformed view, Satan's fall and all of the evil and suffering that resulted from it will be caused by God to bless His people in the end and to redound to His own glory.
@mishka_bo_bishka Says:
Five seconds in and I had to stop. “He could’ve made a robot world” he also could’ve just…not made the world to begin with.
@arthur6157 Says:
00:28 FT: I've noticed that Calvinist apologists can't give a robust answer to the problem of evil.
Calvinists give the same answer as the Non-Reformed who nonetheless believe God infallibly foreknew every event, including every evil event, before He created and yet He created anyway: "God has (a) morally sufficient reason(s) for permitting/determining the evil events He infallibly foreknew/decreed would occur." But the problem is worse for the Non-reformed though, the evil God permits on their view is purposeless and does not serve any intentional divine good end goal. While on the Reformed view, all evil events will, by divine design, serve God's holy purposes along the way and at a minimum, in the end. Therefore, on the doctrinally Deformed view, all the evil and suffering God infallibly foreknew would occur before He created IS POINTLESS. On the Reformed view, all of that same evil and suffering will be caused by God to ultimately result in good for His people and His own glory. On the theologically Deformed view of God, God is wasteful, wasting our suffering and the evil that happens to us. On the Reformed view, ALL of the suffering of His people and ALL of the evil that happens to them will be used by God for their ultimate good and His glory in the end. Therefore, Reformed Christians can patiently endure suffering and evil because like Joseph they know:
[Gen 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you (Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery), **you meant evil** against me (Joseph); **[but] God meant it for good**, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.
TL/DR <><
@aaronmonroe7932 Says:
1:25 since there will be free will in heaven is the possibility there to do evil in heaven?
@MikeOnTheHomestead Says:
I have recently just begun studying the concept of Divine Providence and how to reconcile it to free will. This video explains it very well without actually mentioning the phrase "Divine Providence". We are free to choose good or evil, what we can not choose is the consequences of the choices we make. That is all God :)
@alharris1508 Says:
Frank, you clearly do not know the 1st thing of Calvinism....
@Scottybeammeup2 Says:
There is not free will, only free agency. ?Think. Did the king of Egypt have freewill or free agency when dealing with Moses?
@carlorivera3035 Says:
Calvinism is telling us that God is unfair for giving salvation freely ONLY to a portion of the human population. At first glance, this doctrine appears like it is of the light. But if you look deeper into it and spend more time reading Scriptures, it is actually against the light and might be turning people to atheism and skepticism. When I watched the Turek-Hitchens debate, I saw an atheist who thought God was being unfair and therefore hated Him. Hitchens must have seen God through the lens of Calvinism. Just watch the debate. Wake up Calvinists.
@AMRINDER-123 Says:
Only True morality can save humans.
@MaryJohnH Says:
You seem to misunderstand Calvinism. We believe SIN negates the free will we had before the fall, and that we are completely hopeless of doing true good after the fall. For we are dead in transgressions sin, we don't seek after God, and in fact we are at war with God until He regenerates us.
When it comes to the problem of evil, it is both Calvinist and Non-Calvinist that have theological struggles.
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