There are two kinds of election in the Bible. Election to salvation and election of the nation of Israel. So, who are the elect in Romans 9? Watch this video with our friend Leighton Flowers of Soteriology 101 to find out, and then catch the rest of the conversation here! ? https://bit.ly/3VLt1Az | @Soteriology101
???? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????
The Great Book of Romans by Dr. Frank Turek ????????https://bit.ly/3lpRQks
???? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? (????????????-????????????????????????????????????????) ????
? Website: https://crossexamined.org/donate/
? PayPal: https://bit.ly/Support_CrossExamined_PayPal
???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ????
? Facebook: https://facebook.com/CrossExamined.org
? Twitter: https://twitter.com/Frank_Turek
? Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drfrankturek/
? Pinterest: https://pin.it/JF9h0nA
????? ???????????????????????????????????? ?????
? Website: https://crossexamined.org
? Store: https://impactapologetics.com/
? Online Courses: https://www.onlinechristiancourses.com/
????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ?????
? iTunes: http://bit.ly/CrossExamined_Podcast
? Google Play: https://cutt.ly/0E2eua9
? Spotify: http://bit.ly/CrossExaminedOfficial_Podcast
? Stitcher: http://bit.ly/CE_Podcast_Stitcher
#Soteriology #Apologetics
FREE Download of sermon I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist!: 👉📱https://cutt.ly/cInI1eo
@rorysuire6177 Says:
Funny how the length of this video is 3:16.
@alihoussney7870 Says:
Frank, please do not explain away what Romans 9 is really saying. It is all about God's sovereign choice in who will be saved, continue reading to verses 22-24. God makes one vessel for honor and another vessel for dishonor.
@bobvadney7240 Says:
Who are the elected.. in Rom.9:..,. NOBODY ARE THE ELECTED IN REFERENCE TO SALVATION… b/c ELECTION HAS NEVER BEEN THE MEANS OF SALVATION… as to SAVED & LOSTSOOO ELECTION HAS TO DO W/ What people God intended to continue the Messianic Blood Line Thru’ & that of course is the DESCENDANTS of Abraham….NOTICE… THE ELDER… 1ST BORN….. ESAU SHAL ….” SERVE….” THE YOUNGER…JACOB…. It’s….” SERVE….” NOT SAVED
@vanessakirchner3503 Says:
Calvinism is heresy!!!
@dr.spacecat Says:
It is perfect that the lenght of the video is 3:16 (John 3:16)
@markshaneh Says:
Awesome.
@boiiioioing Says:
I don't think so. Paul immediately refers also to Gentiles in Romans 9:24, which is right after the very statement that is at the precipice of this centuries-old debate. (I'm simply saying this invalidates his argument that simply because Paul mentions Israel, even their election, in subsequent chapters. But perhaps I'm missing something seems the video seems to be cut somewhere in between.)
Romans 9:24 "And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles." NLT
Paul then begins right after to relate both the selection of the Gentiles as 'NOT God's people' to 'My people' and from indifference towards them to passionate affection in love, then that of Israel (emphasizing that it's only the remnant to indicate their rejection).
Although, one can argue that God may have limited this choosing only to Israel, and the choosing of the Gentiles is a mere branching out from that initial choosing. But the very fact that God foreknew this rejection, also means that He foreknew the Gentiles. So to-MAY-to to-MAH-to.
So you can see how you can't really use the words "election" and "foreknowledge" in the same sentence, without conveying a sense of God's prerogative? That's where I'm at.
Paul always called Gentiles as God's chosen people alongside Israel. He also did refer to them directly as "you who are chosen", in as much as he called them to denote God's effectual calling ("chosen in Him", so effectively "...those He predestined, He also called, He also justified those He called, and He also glorified those He justified").
All of that to say that I do believe in predestination. And I don't think Calvinists believe in a deterministic doctrine. Although, in their purview that if it is in fact deterministic, it is out of their utmost reverence and trust and surrender in a good and loving God that would be doing so, as a still helpless child under their parents' care, however that's not what they really teach, so please don't mischaracterize them. I've listened and read numerous teachings on predestination, the emphasis really is on the appreciation of God's sovereignty and God's undeserved kindness towards the chest thumping elect, rather than boasting as some people think Calvinists do.
@billmack5626 Says:
What is elect here is God's spirit. In effect what God is doing is cloning himself. He is being perfectly fair , because he not saving any human. There is none righteous ,no not one. Our human mind goes to the grave awaiting judgement day when it will be eliminated. The spirit we got by faith goes back and indwells Christ, this is how we get eternal life.
@BreeceHoisington Says:
2 Corinthians 4 1
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
@Eric-qv2rz Says:
What Election means God the Father senf Jesus the Son to earth to take on the sins of those chosen or Elected by God. Not all are Chosen Not all are Elected
@samvogel2368 Says:
I still haven't found a debate of Romans 9 in which the text in the order that Gkd wrote it.
@mariavanrooyen3750 Says:
God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. Two individuals not the entire nation of Israel. Read more careful to present heresy.
@patrickderooij8211 Says:
God knew this issue was coming a long time ago,...?
@patrickderooij8211 Says:
Maybe this is the secret of the gospel?
Its for anyone, not specific jews, thats why God changed name of Jacob in Israël. Savie?
@patrickderooij8211 Says:
Revelations7 verse9 and 10.
@patrickderooij8211 Says:
Hosea 1 verse 10
@patrickderooij8211 Says:
If the word of God tells us, anyone who accepts jesus and believes that Christ came in the flesh, becomes a Child of Israel.
What is so hard to belief?
@larrybedouin2921 Says:
Believers who chose to believe.
@TAdler-ex8px Says:
Believers! ❤ From the heart, not one fools Him!
@ManoloVintage Says:
When Paul talks about " In order that Gods plan of election might stand", hes talking about God saving those who would love Him. God foreknew that there would be some who would love and obey Him, so He intends to save those ones. Just like His grace held aside 7,000 who loved and obeyed Him. God didn't toss away an entire race of people or get rid of His promise because the majority rejected Him. Gods promise still stamds for those who love Him and believe in His son. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 9.
Paul is specifically talking about faith and the Jews who have faith in Christ. They are the elect. The elect was never about receiving the promise because of flesh and blood. It was always about those with faith receiving the promise.
Paul wishes he was cursed and cut off from Christ instead of his brothers. Everything began with them and they should have kept faith. But they didnt, so they are no longer children of the promise.
Only those Jews with faith are Abrahams offspring and children of the promise. These are the elect, saved by their love, obedience, and faith in God.
This phrase "elect" doesnt make them more special of a people than other peoples and nationalities. It only means that they were saved through faith. They love and obey God and therefore are saved because of their faith in Christ. This is a small group out of an entire nation of Jews.
@CybrpnkDystopia Says:
"Election" cannot equal "salvation" because of Israel, angels and Jesus himself. All three were elected for a purpose, a service, a preciousness.
@claysindledecker6476 Says:
That was a terrible representation of it. God pre-ordains, and has four knowledge of everything that’s going to happen in this world. He is the only thing in this existence with truly free will
@nealwright5630 Says:
I spent years looking at Ephesians 1 trying to understand why Paul changed from We/Us to You. I finally realized that Paul was referring to the Jews in the verses 2-12 and that he "included" the Ephesians in verse 13. It's the same in Romans! Just because the book says Romans doesn't mean Paul isn't writing to Jews. Only the Jews were "once under the law". Only the Jews would understand the phrase "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ", because Paul had spent the first seven chapters speaking of the judgement under the law. This blows the foundation completely out from under Calvinism!!
@JohnCalvin-h8g Says:
You forgot that Romans 11:3-4 talks about a REMNANT Israel. Not a nation.
@SpielbergMichael Says:
I love Leighton Flowers and his channel, Soteriology 101.
I also strongly recommend the Beyond The Fundamentals. They’re both amazing.
@orlandobautista8477 Says:
PROVERBS 8:17
@willscott596 Says:
This is a doctrine that I have had a hard time reconciling for a long time.
@dc8061 Says:
I love to see christians disagree on the same book
@jonboy9030 Says:
Thank u guys for giving us a different perspective on romans 9
@walterrusty65 Says:
Rom. 9:11 they. The twins Jacob and Esau. done nothing either good or bad. God’s choice of Jacob, instead of Esau, to continue the physical line was not based on his personal merit or demerit. God’s purpose of election. Rather, God’s choice of Jacob resides solely in his own sovereign plan, a perfect example of election unto salvation. God has chosen some Jews—and some Gentiles—but not all, for salvation. not because of works but because of him who calls. The fact that God made his choice of Jacob before the boys were born and apart from personal merit demonstrates that election unto spiritual life is unrelated to any human effort, and is based only on the prerogative of God who makes his selection (see note on 8:29; cf. 1 Cor. 1:9).
@newcreation2521 Says:
Romans 8:12-14: "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." The warning in verse 13 is to "brethren".
@conanlabiche Says:
sorry, frank is "learned" and all that but the Holy Spirit plainly convicts, teaches, and provides truth to the believer as he reads 9 and it simply and clearly means the church.
the adopted children of God.
He chose us since before the foundation of the world.
not in any kind of power of us.
dead men cannot choose !!
@kingmatrix1345 Says:
It goes beyond Israel because Ephesians 1 in that chapter talks solely about predestination and election so obviously Romans 9 is based off of the same predestination and election notion. Jeremiah 1:5 i knew you before the womb snd chose you. Judas Iscariot was chosen for judgement no free will there! Pharaoh’s heart was hardened so no free will there! It amazes how arminianist love to cling to there free will notion when scriptures are clear that human will or efforts cannot replace Jesus’s grace! Free will is another/different gospel.
@phillipgoodson2057 Says:
1 Corinthians 1:26
“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:”
1 Corinthians 1:27
“But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”
False teachers preach against the Word of God.
@SchrodingersCoin Says:
This goes deeper into a discussion about libertarian free will and freedom of inclination.
Here Is a list of contemporary scholars who would adamantly disagree with Frank Turek. Their descriptions and explanations would be superior to either of us.
Wayne Grudem (Ph.D., Cambridge)
J. I. Packer (Ph.D., Oxford)
R. C. Sproul (Ph.D., Whitefield)
D. A. Carson (Ph.D., Cambridge)
Daniel B. Wallace (Ph.D., Dallas)
Bruce Demarest (Ph.D., Manchester)
Michael F. Bird (Ph.D., Queensland)
Michael Horton (Ph.D., Oxford)
Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., SBTS)
John MacArthur (D.D., Talbot)
Robert Letham (Ph.D., Aberdeen)
R. Michael Allen (Ph.D. Wheaton)
Scott R. Swain (Ph.D. Trinity)
Robert Duncan Culver (Th.D., Grace)
Robert L. Reymond (Ph.D., Bob Jones)
Is it safe to say that you identify as an amyraldian and a geislerite?
“an inconsistent and therefore unstable form of Calvinism” — B. B. Warfield (Professor of Theology at Princeton) 1915
"The basic difference may be said to boil down to the question: Who determines who are to be saved? According to Semi-Pelagians, Arminians and Wesleyans, man determines. All hinges on human choice. In a strange way, so agrees Norman Geisler, who in an effort to avoid what he calls extreme Calvinism manages to become not a moderate Calvinist but a pretty good synergist, i.e. an Arminian." — Robert Duncan Culver (Professor of Theology at Wheaton College and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School). Systematic Theology, Biblical and Historical. Part 3. 8 Theories of the Imputation of Sin.
Turek, I am a fan, but calvinism does not say anything about election against our will. We're elected, before we even had a will, to willingly accept the effectual call. It was never agaisnt our will, because our will didn't exist when we were elected.
@ReformedlyGuy Says:
Yikes… try reading Romans 11:7… the receipt of righteousness is in view in election… those who are hardened perish, but the elect obtained the righteousness of God… Paul is able to walk and chew gum. He may and is in fact using national election as an exemplar of individual election unto salvation, the obtaining of Christs righteousness by faith. There… fixed.
@tims.449 Says:
Yes!!! Paul loved his fellow Jews and speaks to them thru his epistles. Israel was elected and they had to believe that Jesus was and is and will be their Messiah, King and Redeemer. There righteousness came from obeying the law of Moses. That was their truth and will be in the future their truth. Our truth is we are not under the law of Moses but we can use it to convert a nonbeliever. Two truths are in the bible. The Jews truth of election is their truth but we are chosen
Eph.1
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - He chose us before the start. Romans 16:25
Their truth - Jas.2
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
But now our truth - Romans 3 a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law, verse 28
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Elected Israel. They were the conduit for bringing in the Son of God and fooling the evil forces into crucifying Jesus so God could reveal the superior way of salvation for mankind. 1 Cor. 15, if you keep Paul's gospel in mind it will save you from the ball of confusion the church is in.
@G2C777 Says:
Rom. 9: 23-24 would seem to imply that it's referring to individuals. Both Jews and gentiles.
Also, using the comparison "Jacob I have loved, but esau I have hated" to refer to nations seems a weird analogy if it's not also true for the individual.
@alphamegaradio Says:
Boom Boom Boom. Thank you, sir. Much needed clarity on election, largely due to this particular passage. After this breakdown, it all begins to square-up, doctrine-wise. Amazing how God set that up? 🙂
@tarjat7 Says:
Armenian and dispensationalism theology is a lie. There is no rapture
@tarjat7 Says:
Romans 9-11 is about the election of all of God's people whom he predestined( both Jews and Gentiles). What Paul the Apostle is saying is that their is a distinction between the nation of Israel and God's chosen people for eternity. Romans 11 makes it clear that the Jews who have been saved by Jesus are part of the true "israel."... It is important to read the bible in context and don't look at it from a dispensational view. Old Testament prophecies often times have a fulfillment for the nation of Israel and the Spiritual Isreal, whuch is the Church. There are two types of "Israel" in the Bible; there is the nation or ethnic Isreal and spiritual Isreal which is the Church of Jesus Christ
@maxstrange7606 Says:
Your using the OT to interpret the NT. That is backwards. NT, Jesus and the Apostles have interpretive priority. Jacob and Esau are INDIVIDUALS by the way. You are making an either/or argument. It's both/and.
@RandomBoxingGuy Says:
God makes it clear, through MANY verses, that we have a choice. He also makes it clear, that He knows which side you will choose. IMO… John McArthur said it best “Some things, we just won’t get to know this side of heaven”.
@nobody1042 Says:
It does not matter whether the election is for individuals or the nation of Isreal. The election is by God's will, not by man's will.
@timothyvenable3336 Says:
I appreciate the thought here… but there’s a few problems.
Gods election cannot be based on foreknowledge as Frank says. “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—” Paul is clarifying that election cannot be based on works, even future works, otherwise it’s not election! It is because of “*Him who calls*”!
Also, I don’t think Romans 9 is about Israel. I’m not smart enough to articulate that, though, and based my reasoning on what I’ve heard in a sermon series on this from John Piper
@ezsalvation3656 Says:
“The Elect” are anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
@1luv4j Says:
Not our righteous not even 1 the world was taken over by Nazi Rome Malta wake up slaves please I miss you Ywshua(awe sheu wa) Immanuel.
@dodgyphilisopher9905 Says:
Basically perfect. Except do not mix esau, with that of election. It's not the same and a bit misleading. Unless you believe some Calvinism doctrine that some can be elected to destruction. Esau is the end of this world... election for damnation is not actually true. There is actually no predestination for hell, all, each and every person ever, no matter what they or their ancestors did, can in Christ alone, be redeemed and purchased back. If there was predestination for hell, there would be absolutely no reason to warn anyone about falling into deception. Because it's impossible to warn one, who is predestined to hell, or to make peace and proclaim unto the gentiles with someone predestined for hell because they would be predestined they cannot choose fear of the LORD. Fortunately, those 2 concepts, election and damnation cannot mix. People can be given over if they have been decevied, you cannot be deceived if you have no choice, and proverbs say we have to choose the fear of the LORD. Choice wins here. Because of this obvious logic, Deception itself, interestingly enough, actually proves anyone can be saved. Ishmael means God will hear for a reason. And ethnic Israel's election is important, they need to say blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord first, else they shall not see him. And we cannot go further it must happen before the LORD can even return. But it's hard because they don't believe, and use certain information to muddy the waters on certain issues. Hiding the key of knowledge as the LORD said. Also this is not an anti Calvinism attack btw, only a correction to put a concept of doctrine back into it's proper exegetical context. Anyone can be saved. Damnation is choice.
@Zatoichi82 Says:
Watch: Election and salvation are NOT synonyms - Dr. Michael S. Heiser
LATEST COMMENTS