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From his answer, apparently he does not understand Romans 8:29-30.
First thing is realize *WHY* verses 29-30 are there.
Paul makes the statement _“and we know...”._ Then he does what *EVERY NT* writer does from time to time.
They refer back to the OT to make a point, or to support what they are saying. Lots of times the OT reference is in the form of quotes. Not only NT writers, but also people whose word we have do that too.
A prime example would be the interaction between Jesus and the devil. _“Cast thyself down: *FOR IT IS WRITTEN”.* And: “Jesus said unto him, *IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN...”.*
*_So Verses 29-30 are used by Paul to support what he said in verse 28, “And we know....”._*
I speak no Greek, but if you look up the word _proginōskō_ that Paul used in verse 29, it is the same word he used in Acts 26:5, and in Romans 11:2. I use the KJV, and we find the words knew, foreknew, and foreknow in those verses. He is using the word _proginōskō_ the same way he used it in Acts 26:5 and Romans 11:2.
In Acts, it's people who knew Paul previous to his conversion. In Romans 11:2, it's the people of Israel who God knew previously. And in Romans 8:29, it's also people who God knew previously.
There is *NO* indication that it's -EVER people God loved in “eternity past”.- So, seeing that Paul is using some people that God knew in the past, I conclude he is talking about Old Testament saints.
It's not that the only ones known of God in the past are OT saints, (he knows the hearts of all men), it is that the ones Paul are using to illustrate his point are OT saints.
But not ALL the OT saints. He is talking about Old Testament types of Christ.
I believe that among the ones of whom Paul is speaking, there are *Prophets* like Moses, *Priests* like Melchisedec, *Potentates* like King David, *Patriarchs* like Joseph, and possibly *Princesses* like Sarah. Those are the types of people who were *_predestined, called, justified, and glorified._* He's talking about those of whom it can be said that they were predestined to be conformed to the image, *(READ ICON),* of God's son. That is to say, types of Christ.
To be conformed to the image of his son is assumed by many to mean -to be like Christ,- *but, I say unto you,* *_it means that some aspect of the life of Christ can be seen in the life of the type/icon._* That's what makes the type an icon, the fact that something that happened to Christ happened to them IN A FIGURE.
Joseph is a prime example. The things that happened to Joseph to _“conform him to the image”,_ did not happen by accident, or chance, but they were *_predestined_* to happen.
God used things that are often seen in life to predestine Joseph to be an icon. Things like being the favorite of his father, _(his beloved son),_ his dreams, the sibling rivalry, and things of that nature. So, if you look through the OT, and you see someone of whom it can be said that some aspect of the life of the life of Christ can be seen in that person, *AND* that person was *_called, justified, and glorified,_* then you can say that that person fits into verses 29-30.
The problem is when many Christians read the words predestined, justified, and glorified, they apply alternative meanings to those words, which while those meanings may be accurate, they are not being used the way many Christians think they are being used.
Being predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, as we have previously said, simply means that the things that happened to the types of Christ to make them ICONS did not happen by accident or chance.
Part of what set up Moses being a type of Christ was his being found by Pharaohs daughter and growing up in Pharaohs house. That did not happen by chance.
Joseph was predestined to be a type of Christ, he was called, he was justified, and he has been glorified.
Using Joseph as an example, I believe Paul makes the statement in 8:28, and as proof that all things work together for good, the examples of that is people we can look at and say that all things worked together for good for those people. Joseph was called, justified, and glorified.
Joseph was predestined to be a type of Christ. Paul does not mention Joseph by name because he does not have the time to list all of the “many brethern” by name. One of the ways that Joseph was predestined to be _“conformed to the image”,_ an icon, or a type, is by his dreams, which were clearly from God. Some say he should have kept his dreams to himself, but he was *JUSTIFIED* in telling his dreams to his family because they came true. But when we see the word justified, we usually think of being justified by faith. Joseph has been *GLORIFIED:* Genesis 45:13 “And ye shall tell my father of all my glory in Egypt...” God is the one who put Joseph in place to be glorified. I believe Paul makes the statement in 8:28, and as evidence of his statement in verse 28, he gives verse 29. But verse 29 does not tell the whole story, so he adds the information that is in verse 30. But, usually, when we see the words "called, justified, and glorified, we think of those words in the context of being justified by faith, being glorified in the resurrection, and being called by God through the gospel, or something along those lines. I believe that's the way many see those words. Not as applying to the icons, or types of Christ in the Old Testament, but to Christians today. Or perhaps Christians since the beginning of time.
The glory that Joseph had in Egypt came from him being able to interpret Pharaoh's dreams. Which he did through the power of God. And all of the things that happened to Joseph had been predestined by God, not just to get Jacob and his household into Egypt, but also to make Joseph a type of Christ. That is to say, to be conformed to the image of God's Son. And, since there are many types/icons of Christ, but Christ is greater than them all, He is the *_"Firstborn among many brethern"._*
@spirit_06 Says:
Marking this
@lizjay4119 Says:
It’s a spirit. And how would he know?
@Bothepianoguy1118 Says:
As he said, God knows all things, therefore there is no room for choice if our decision can not be different from the outcome God already knows
@BonnieAndClydeAquatics Says:
Terrible answer. You can’t compare yourself to God. God decides if the sun shall rise in the East tomorrow and the next.
@Mister_Matt_R Says:
Fallen man has no free will until we are saved and made free then we can choose to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh; a choice the natural man doesn’t have. What is the flesh? It s our being; our mind, WILL and emotions combined with our body. All humans have a body and a soul: flesh. But only the redeemed are body soul AND spirit.
The Christian has a free Will, like Adam and Eve did, because when we are saved we take on the likeness of the new Adam and we are made whole. (Romans 5:12-21)
See Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 2.
Mankind has a choice; accept Christ or deny Christ (Matthew 10:32-33) but that choice comes according to Gods’ will through the drawing power of the cross because he is not willing that any man should perish , (2 Peter 3:9) and not by the will of man (Romans 9:16).
So, if the natural man rejects Christ then he is denying the drawing power of the cross through the Holy Spirit and this is unforgivable (Matthew 12:30-32)
The Cross is the promise, the plan and the predestination and Christ is the manifestation of that promise. That’s why when we accept Him as Lord and Saviour we step into that predestination. (Romans 10:9)
Ephesians 1 says “just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,”
— Ephesians 1:4-5
Our predestination to adoption as sons is in Him and by Him when we accept what He did. And we choose him by His Will through the drawing power of the cross, not of our own free will but in spite of our fallen will.
It is all the cross.
Calvin and Arminius both made it halfway but their theologies were incomplete. They both put man first, Calvin made predestination about the individual and Arminius made choice about the individual.
Our predestination and our choice are not individual, they are in Him and by Him; through the drawing power of the cross.
2 Peter 3:6 talks about the entire world perishing in the flood and 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing any should perish but all should come to repentance.
If one believes that only some people can repent and be saved then they must also believe the flood covered some of the world and not all of it.
Amen. 🙏
@AnchoredHopefulSoul Says:
Job 14:5 everybodys days are numbered this is not true
@zarzar527 Says:
... Free Wiil makes God into a FOOL.
If you belive that God knows all things (Is. 46:10) and ... Desires ... that NONE Perish (2 Pet 3:9) then WHY would He give man a "So Called Free Wiil" knowing ahead of time, that most would use their "So Called Free Will" to REJECT Him (as Organized Christianity teaches) and thus DESTROY His Own ... Desire ... to save ALL of Mankind?
Can anyone explain how that is possible and WHY God would ever do such a FOOLISH thing?
"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." Mark 3:25.
@zarzar527 Says:
I will belive we have a Free Will when someone can tell me when we used our Free Will to be condemned by the One (1) Act of Adam.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment CAME UPON All men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE Gift CAME UPON All men unto justification of life." Rom. 5:18
Where is the FREE WILL Choice to be condemned,ned or saved in that verse? You tell me.
@zarzar527 Says:
... ON VACATION.
Looks like God and Jesus have gone on Vacation and have "Given Up" on their Plan of Salvation to save sinners. When asked WHY, they said this:
"We wanted ALL men to be saved, but we didn't realize that if we gave mankind a ... Free Will ... that MOST would use it to REJECT us. It was a SURPRISE to us, but we couldn't reverse our decision.
After THOUSANDS of years of effort on our part to OFFER All sinners the "OPPRTUNITY"" to get saved, we have Finally realized that our Desires to save All of Mankind is NEVER going to happen according to Organized Christianity and all of their Scholars, Pastors, Teachers, and Prophets have revealed to us.
The truth is that were are ...Worn Out ... and have decided to take a much-needed... "Rest and Relaxation Vacation" ... from man and have given them Full Control and the Last Word so they can decide their Own Final Destiny.
THANK YOU ... Organized Christianity for helping us to see EXACTLY where our Plan of Salvation is headed. Without you, we would have kept on ... Trying Over and Over Again" ... with very little success."
@SizemicKick177 Says:
Actually, if he knew what would happen with creation before he created it, he is 100% the cause of it, knowingly. It's just blatant denial of the truth if you say otherwise. If God knew Adam would basically condemn the vast majority of his children to hell, why wouldn't God do something about it, like give Adam the Holy Spirit, like Jesus had, so that he wouldn't sin?
No matter how reasonable of a Christian I find, like this guy, they always have to sacrifice some basic reason in order to fully believe in the Bible. Instead, think for yourself. You can believe in God without having to sacrifice reason to fully accept everything the Bible says.
@garrettsmith6679 Says:
The truth is, we don’t need to understand it, we don’t need to make sense of it, God created the world with his breath and we think we need to fully connect the dots to our understanding with everything he is does? We don’t need to know why or how we just need to know that HE IS!
@braggfamily1123 Says:
2 Peter 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
@teddyschannel9488 Says:
THERE WE GO THANK YOU 🙏
I’ve been thinking the same thing but I didn’t know the right words to explain it.
@noah5592 Says:
I think that God is ULTIMATELY causing us to do it by creating us the way we are
@msmd3295 Says:
Knowledge of advanced events does imply a causal relationship of some level. No one can know in advance what is going to happen unless they directly influence some outcome.
@matthewstokes1608 Says:
If you are outside of Christ THIS IS BY YOUR FREE WILL.
@TheDesertVulture Says:
Its because He had knowledge of the evil that will happen, has the power to prevent it, and does nothing about it... He could have at least made us smarter than the snake. Then we wouldn't be too naieve to fall for its tricks
@mikeywyko Says:
How is it election if it's merely foreknowledge. God chose His elect before all time.
@STREETLIGHTEVANGLIST Says:
GOD HAS A PLAN THE HE PREDESTINED FOR ARE LIFE WE HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO WALK IN IT OR TO WALK AWAY
@johnweber4577 Says:
To my mind, predestination in Christianity only works if the idea is that those within the Body of Christ as a group are predetermined to be saved at the end of a grand plan but people have the free will to choose whether or not they are going to be part of it on an individual level by then even if God has the foreknowledge from the eternal now to know where their personal decisions may ultimately lead and takes them all into account.
@mikeywyko Says:
To affirm this is to affirm that there is good (faith and repentance) which is not caused by God. Read the works of St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic, his defense of unconditional election is far superior to that of Calvin.
@alexz31cujo31 Says:
In over your head. We have no control over the sun, nor did we create it, nor do we sustain it.
@joalaar Says:
Even Christians love their free will more than they love God.
@Plantista-h7d Says:
Please include clarity on this issue under 2 Timothy 2:25
Share and intercede diligently for the lost. Almighty GOD will give an opening to understanding and acceptance of HIM when we petition for the destined lost.
@j.acob.c Says:
So either eternal suffering or eternal bliss. Doesn’t sound like he’s giving us a choice 😂
@JakeBlake109-b4h Says:
Alright. Let’s debunk.
The Bible says in Romans 9:21–22 (ESV):
“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…”
Basically god saying: “Yeah so if I wanna make you just for destruction and evil I can because I’m the creator.”
If that is the case, then how are humans to be held morally accountable for anything if it is literally god’s will for you to be made a ‘vessel of destruction’? Also, if god already decideds who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before we are even born, then how do we have free will if god already made us do these things to go to hell?
@TheLamboman640 Says:
This is absolutely brilliant!
@jeromecook-h9v Says:
Lie...
@dksvciifiic Says:
But I haven‘t made to sun to rise every day so ofc I havae no influence. The difference is, God has made me.
@harrymurray9702 Says:
A very poorly answered question. We're all human we fall short, but he missed the point of the Question.
@Christian.Orthodox-Catholic Says:
but God does cause the sun to go up, He literally is in control of everything
@wisdompr12033 Says:
Poor and weak explanation
@friendyadvice2238 Says:
Predestined actually means God Chose a person for salvation before the creation of the world ..... basically the Elect. God the Father has elected some people to receive eternal life, purely as an act of grace. There is nothing special about the elect person, compared to anyone else. The amazing difference is God has shown immense grace to the elect person, something they don't deserve. Thank you Heavenly Father for the incredible gift.
@mebsteve47 Says:
What was it that entered your life that changed your mind, belief system, and heart? Someone told you that you were a sinner, but that Christ died for you.
The Justice, Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, Faithfulness and Love of God enters our lives through the Gospel. As our eyes are opened to SEE the Goodness of God in Christ we are Transformed. Our eyes are opened to see His Spirit. When His Spirit is Poured out to us through the Gospel our minds begin to be transformed by His Spirit, our hearts begin to be transformed by His Spirit, our actions begin to be transformed by His Spirit at work in us.
He transforms EVERYONE that Hears the Gospel and and doesn’t deny it or reject it. You do nothing! The Gospel does the Work of Transformation within us.
We don’t have to decide or choose or accept Jesus. The Gospel does that for us as we are hearing it.
@Chandramalika.A Says:
This still makes no sense though. Take his sun analogy for example.... Obviously, even though we are not causing the sun to rise yet we know it will, we therefore cannot judge the sun to eternal damnation for simply acting within its nature. Also, lets not act as though we created the sun. Because it would be even worse if we created the sun to function a certain way, then knowing it will function exactly that way still pass judgement on it..... "God" (at least the Christian/Abrahimic "god", if you will) does exactly that.....
@Alia.Jade.Fashion Says:
But if GOD is so loving of us why would he create us to have a destiny to sin and be tormented in hell? Genuine question from a reverted christian that still has questio ns about GOD.
@racegts Says:
Exactly!!! Just because God knows what we’re gonna do doesn’t mean he is causing it, that would mean that we don’t have free will.
@CoronadoCigars Says:
Open Theism is a theological perspective that seeks to reconcile God’s omniscience with human free will by asserting that God’s knowledge of the future is dynamic rather than exhaustive. It is often considered heretical by orthodox Christian traditions because it challenges classical views of God’s omniscience, immutability, and sovereignty. Below is an overview of the core tenets of Open Theism and why it is deemed heretical by many within Reformed and evangelical circles.
Core Tenets of Open Theism
1. God’s Knowledge of the Future:
Open Theism claims that God knows all possibilities but does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future free decisions of individuals. This is because the future is not yet fully determined and thus unknowable in a fixed sense.
2. Human Free Will:
It emphasizes libertarian free will, meaning human choices are genuinely undetermined and not causally predetermined by God.
3. God’s Sovereignty:
Proponents argue that God’s sovereignty is expressed through His ability to adapt and respond to human choices rather than by meticulously determining every event in advance.
4. Dynamic Relationship with Creation:
Open Theists assert that God engages in a reciprocal, changing relationship with His creation, experiencing emotions and responding to events as they unfold in time.
Why Open Theism is Considered Heretical
1. Denial of God’s Exhaustive Foreknowledge:
Traditional Christian theology teaches that God’s knowledge is complete, timeless, and exhaustive (Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 139:1-6). Open Theism denies this, suggesting that God learns about future events as they happen. This undermines the classical understanding of God’s omniscience.
2. Challenge to God’s Immutability:
Open Theism implies that God changes in response to creation, which contradicts Scriptures affirming God’s immutability (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
3. Weakening of God’s Sovereignty:
By claiming God does not determine or fully know the future, Open Theism diminishes His sovereignty over creation, conflicting with verses like Romans 8:28 and Ephesians 1:11, which emphasize God’s providential control over all things.
4. Anthropomorphism Taken Too Far:
Open Theism heavily relies on passages that describe God “relenting” or “regretting” (e.g., Genesis 6:6, Jonah 3:10), interpreting these as literal changes in God’s plans. Traditional theology understands these anthropomorphic descriptions as accommodations to human understanding, not indications of change in God’s eternal nature.
5. Undermining the Gospel:
If God does not know the future exhaustively, His promises and prophecies, including those concerning Christ’s work of redemption, could be seen as uncertain. This undermines trust in the infallibility of Scripture and God’s ability to guarantee salvation (Isaiah 55:11; Hebrews 13:8).
Reformed Response to Open Theism
Reformed theologians particularly reject Open Theism as a departure from biblical orthodoxy. They argue:
• God’s decrees are eternal and unchanging (Isaiah 14:24, 27).
• Human free will is compatible with God’s sovereignty, as God ordains human actions without coercing them (Acts 4:27-28; Philippians 2:13).
• God’s exhaustive foreknowledge is a cornerstone of His divine nature and is affirmed throughout Scripture.
Many Reformed confessions, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, explicitly affirm God’s unchanging sovereignty, knowledge, and providence, directly opposing the key claims of Open Theism.
Conclusion
Open Theism represents a significant theological deviation by attempting to prioritize human free will at the expense of God’s traditional attributes. By rejecting God’s
@CoronadoCigars Says:
Open Theism is a theological perspective that seeks to reconcile God’s omniscience with human free will by asserting that God’s knowledge of the future is dynamic rather than exhaustive. It is often considered heretical by orthodox Christian traditions because it challenges classical views of God’s omniscience, immutability, and sovereignty. Below is an overview of the core tenets of Open Theism and why it is deemed heretical by many within Reformed and evangelical circles.
Core Tenets of Open Theism
1. God’s Knowledge of the Future:
Open Theism claims that God knows all possibilities but does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future free decisions of individuals. This is because the future is not yet fully determined and thus unknowable in a fixed sense.
2. Human Free Will:
It emphasizes libertarian free will, meaning human choices are genuinely undetermined and not causally predetermined by God.
3. God’s Sovereignty:
Proponents argue that God’s sovereignty is expressed through His ability to adapt and respond to human choices rather than by meticulously determining every event in advance.
4. Dynamic Relationship with Creation:
Open Theists assert that God engages in a reciprocal, changing relationship with His creation, experiencing emotions and responding to events as they unfold in time.
Why Open Theism is Considered Heretical
1. Denial of God’s Exhaustive Foreknowledge:
Traditional Christian theology teaches that God’s knowledge is complete, timeless, and exhaustive (Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 139:1-6). Open Theism denies this, suggesting that God learns about future events as they happen. This undermines the classical understanding of God’s omniscience.
2. Challenge to God’s Immutability:
Open Theism implies that God changes in response to creation, which contradicts Scriptures affirming God’s immutability (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
3. Weakening of God’s Sovereignty:
By claiming God does not determine or fully know the future, Open Theism diminishes His sovereignty over creation, conflicting with verses like Romans 8:28 and Ephesians 1:11, which emphasize God’s providential control over all things.
4. Anthropomorphism Taken Too Far:
Open Theism heavily relies on passages that describe God “relenting” or “regretting” (e.g., Genesis 6:6, Jonah 3:10), interpreting these as literal changes in God’s plans. Traditional theology understands these anthropomorphic descriptions as accommodations to human understanding, not indications of change in God’s eternal nature.
5. Undermining the Gospel:
If God does not know the future exhaustively, His promises and prophecies, including those concerning Christ’s work of redemption, could be seen as uncertain. This undermines trust in the infallibility of Scripture and God’s ability to guarantee salvation (Isaiah 55:11; Hebrews 13:8).
Reformed Response to Open Theism
Reformed theologians particularly reject Open Theism as a departure from biblical orthodoxy. They argue:
• God’s decrees are eternal and unchanging (Isaiah 14:24, 27).
• Human free will is compatible with God’s sovereignty, as God ordains human actions without coercing them (Acts 4:27-28; Philippians 2:13).
• God’s exhaustive foreknowledge is a cornerstone of His divine nature and is affirmed throughout Scripture.
Many Reformed confessions, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, explicitly affirm God’s unchanging sovereignty, knowledge, and providence, directly opposing the key claims of Open Theism.
Conclusion
Open Theism represents a significant theological deviation by attempting to prioritize human free will at the expense of God’s traditional attributes. By rejecting God’s
@timothykring4772 Says:
Imagine if God left you to your own devices -- in your fallen state . Your will at that point was to stay as far away from God as possible . Thank Him that He works in your life . He's active in salvation.
@favee5447 Says:
Exactly, God knowing the choices I am going to make is not God controlling the choices I am going to make.
@Matthew6-27 Says:
Galatians 5:13: "For you were called to freedom, brothers; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."
@chrismachin2166 Says:
I am proud I chose Christ,Frank. My humble,intelligent,more sensitive,righteous character made Christ choose me.
@jojosim5087 Says:
if your God yes your causing the sun to rise!?!
@baizidmahmud6591 Says:
Seems like the more islamic theology of free will.
@SkyeWulver Says:
If God guarantees an outcome, that cements the fact the free will does not exist. Even if it's just in the parameters that the pastor outlined. If you believe,, you will be saved. If you don't believe, you will be damned. But God already knows what choices we will make and the outcome of our choices. He just created a box, that only allows a certain belief inside. But he also already knows who is going to be outside/inside of the box when you come into being in the world. He already has foreknowledge of all of the decision you will ever make. Therefore he knows, the instant you come into this world whether or not you will be saved. He has created a hell for people in this world that he already knows will not be saved. From the moment they are born he already knows they will end up in hell.
What loving God would create something he already knows will end up in hell? God cannot be omnipotent, and know the outcome of your life, and also give you free will.
He may know every possible outcome from all of the decision that you may make, but only by not knowing the exact outcome, is free will actually allowed. Otherwise God, of his own volition, damns people to hell the moment they are born, but his own self described omnipotence.
@Ronjonsensorrow Says:
I think god had me tested because my time is up. Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Mostly the spirit guides me through
7 years of crazy persecution, lust fill temptations and other sins By the end Incouldnhear them telling what to do and what not
To do. The last prostitute that was trying
To pursues me I could feel them pulling on me. Compared to all the other trials it was smooth and worry free. A lot of heart break. A lot. There isn't much heart left People can be horrible to each other. Just awful The last two years I've been given some peace to rest. It's too bad because now I really wanna spend more time with my family more than ever.😊
@itzikcohen2866 Says:
If i have some way to know my future that's written by god, did i still be able to change it? If i can't, there isn't free will, and if i do, god doesn't know everything
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