Do atheists need God to make their case? We sure think so, and there's seven reasons why. Join Frank at 8:30 pm ET this upcoming Monday 8/7 for an introduction to the C.R.I.M.E.S. atheists commit to make their case against God plus Q&A from the chat!
Crime committed against a book character? Who cares
@abastabul9115 Says:
turek has no credibility talking God or teaching Bible while he sings the praises of a corrupt, immoral publc servant, a supreme court justice at that. Hypocrite.
@joejohnson9499 Says:
Causality - it is presumption that god is the start of causality and not part of the sequence or that there is a first cause
Reason - this presupposes reason exists as a prescriptive as opposed to descriptive
Information - it is a descriptive category we've drawn around phenomena
Morality - is there a way to demonstrate there is an objective morality?
Evil - there can be a concept of evil that is relative as opposed to objective
Science - it is a derived process that utilizes the assumption of the uniformity of nature.
@rolandwatts3218 Says:
O.k. Let's look at some more, beyond the first 10 minutes.
11:30 mark. Horhey talks about other groups which are now "bringing the same kind of arguments in recent years ... and are using the same kind of thought and logic and ideas to argue against things like the immorality of the God of the bible ..."
I guess Horhey is thinking of those who claim to be Christian, but who are actually false Christians who also stole from God to argue against "the immorality of the God of the bible". If I am correct then according to Frank and Horhey, just about everyone stole from God? Anyone who is not a real Christian stole from God.
^^ That gets to be like Frank's "persecution" claim at the start (see my other post). If Christians think that getting cancer, losing a child, or getting a divorce are all examples of persecution, then so many not true Christians are also being persecuted, along with atheists.
^^^ If Christians wish to appear credible to the world then they need to stop this kind of apologetic.
12:25 mark. Frank takes on the progressive Christians. (it appears that my guess above is somewhat correct). He accuses them of not being real Christians because they "disagree with Jesus". Frank goes on to say that "... if you disagree with Jesus you are not progressing, you are regressing ...".
The problem is, it would appear that the two progressive Christian women are disagreeing with Frank, and Frank's understanding of what Jesus is reported to have said, and done. Unless Frank is claiming to be Jesus or to speak for Jesus, then that is all that seems to have happened.
^^ This is a huge problem for Christianity. Christians have always been brawling amongst themselves as to who is the true Christian, the biblical Christian, and who is the false Christian, the "wolf in sheep's clothing". For all their claims to have the Holy Ghost within them, a personal relationship with God that beats any human relationship, and spiritual discernment they are still unable to work out what is in God's supposed clear, infallible and inerrant message to us, via the bible.
^^^ Why.not.just.ask.God?
12:41 mark. Frank asserts - "... there is no such thing as evil unless there is good, and there is no such thing as good, unless God exists, in an objective way ..."
Well that assertion opens a can of worms. A few worms for example:-
1. Non-Christians, including atheists can easily argue for objective good. They just make the same kind of assertions as Frank. But for atheists, they simply see all this as a part of the universe. For other non-Christian theists, they see this as a part of their God or gods.
2. Likewise, there is no such thing as good unless there is evil, and there is no such thing as evil unless God exists, in an objective way. Then all I need to do is wheel out bible verses implying or showing that God is the author of evil. How far do believers want to run with this.
3. But why does one have to argue for objective good and objective bad. Suppose morality is relative. That is, I have my morality and you have yours, and sometimes our moralities clash. Even in that system there is still "good" morality and "bad" morality. To learn of this amazing fact, just ask people. In fact, just ask Christians and you will quickly see that they often have very different opinions. Consider war (killing people) for example. Given any particular war, some Christians will say that we should not fight, while others say that we should.
4. Is chattel slavery objectively good or not? Or does God hold different opinions given different times and different cultures? Consider slavery as just one example. If chattel slavery is objectively bad today, then just read Lev 25:44-46.
5. And so on. Frank tries to make it simple and authoritative. But it's not simple. And given the lousy argumentation, I fail to see why it should be considered necessarily authoritative. People have very good reasons for rejecting so many claims made by Christians.
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Anyway, I have written two wee essays over the first 11 minutes. I may leave it here. I'm not sure.
@crestiniideastazi7976 Says:
Can Holy Spirit stay in you If you play sexual games Or watch sinfull mouvies?
@crestiniideastazi7976 Says:
You can have demons if the Holy Spirit leaves you.
@willievanstraaten1960 Says:
Frank, how ironic, none of the 7 things would exist if not for god. Yes, surely not evil. The biblical god claimed and boasts that he created evil.
@willievanstraaten1960 Says:
Which god am I slapping in the face? Christians are slapping all other gods in the face.
@willievanstraaten1960 Says:
“Child abuse cannot be wrong if there is no god” Fran at 13.
Hallo Frank which of the thousands of ancient gods or the more than 3 400 gods worshipped ate present or are they all one god with different messages and conducts?
@oldseer7610 Says:
Discovery: Biblical creation is not the creation of a material universe. The things of creation are metaphors for spiritual nature not material nature. Over time and experience Old Seers have found spiritual interpretations to be correct. Material creation is incorrect.
There now exists two distinctly opposing understandings of biblical Creation. No others are possible. The universe contains only 2 things that everything can be derived from, material nature and spiritual nature. No other interpretations are possible but these two
@assininecomment1630 Says:
Atheists steal from God...?
Hmmmm.... 🤔
Let's test out this concept, shall we?
A real person,
takes a real thing, that they know is owned by another real person and without permission of that owner.
It could be a creation, recognised idea, or other object.
Yeah, nah - that's not a thing.
There _cannot_ be theft from any god itself, by those who don't believe in gods
Off the top of my head, there's no example of any thief taking anything from an entity that the thief didn't think exists. Not only that - it's an entity that cannot be perceived by the thief or anyone else.
Such a notion can't be demonstrated.
If the thief knew the owner existed, the owner wouldn't be a god.
If the thief didn't know the owner existed, but the owner _could_ be literally percieved by others, the owner can't be a god.
If others _believe_ the owner exists, but the the thief doesn't, the believers' view does nothing to change the status of the action of the thief.
If the the thief took something owned by the believers, the theft was from those others - not of the church.
@rolandwatts3218 Says:
Look guys, apologists need to do better than this. A few points for the first 10 minutes.
1. Persecution. At the 2:20 mark, Frank lists the terrible things Christians can go through, such as loss of a child, cancer, divorce, drug addiction, loss of a job, and so on. At the 4:15 mark he labels all of these evils as "all this persecution". Is Frank serious? If so then I too have been persecuted and i know many atheists who have. Talk about a persecution complex. I've yet to hear an atheist call divorce, the loss of a job, cancer, the loss of a child, a drug addiction, a "persecution".
2. The nasty non-Christian trope. At the 4:18 mark, Frank compares "persecuted" Christians to their neighbour across the road - who is a non Christian and "maybe a cheat". Why not a Christian neighbour across the road who maybe a cheat? Christians do cheat, and bear false witness, and get divorced.
3. At the 4:35 mark, Frank asks rhetorically - "This so called God of the bible - why would you worship him?" Obviously to escape hell and gain heaven. No matter how cruel you think God is, if you also believe that he will give you extreme pain for eternity if you don't worship him, and give you eternal bliss if you do worship him, then maybe you will actually worship him?
4. Ironies. At the 6:16 mark Frank mentions that slavery is in the bible. Kudos. Not only is debt slavery mentioned but so is chattel slavery. A lot of believers don't seem to know this. The Israelis are to get their chattel slaves from foreign lands and can pass then on as heritable property. At the 7:00 mark, Frank says of evangelicals "It seems like you are living in a cult. You've got these toxic beliefs ...". Exactly. Many ex evangelicals comment on the cult like behaviours of the evangelical/fundamentalist churches they were involved in.
5. At the 8:20 mark Frank says that "... when atheists make some of the claims that I just made, they are actually stealing from God to argue against him."
In a sense, that's possible. But be careful, you might be surprised to learn just how much Christians have stolen from others.
6. At the 10:38 mark, Horhey asks Frank about the things atheists have stolen from God to argue against God, things such as reason, morality, causality etc.
Well, see just above. Reason, morality, and causality were concepts developed well before Christianity came about. If atheists are to be accused of stealing from the Christian God, then Christians are to be accused of stealing from the Jewish God, the Greek and Roman gods, the Babylonian and Persian gods, and so on. And Christians stole from those gods to argue against them. Frank's "logic" cuts both ways.
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Anyway I might pick up on more of this later. I need to go to bed.
@redinsart Says:
5:24 it’s funny how this description matches humanity…
@user-xg6tw3qh9t Says:
Believe it or not , born in a catholic family (dad's side)
I would always hear of supernatural things that happen at night in Mexico (I use to go every year growing up) from residents there n from my family members, my aunt happens to be a devoted nun would also talk about how she seen exorcism many times
Later I found out about a century ago there was a religious war (cristeros war) Catholic priests were hanged horrible horrible things , I wonder if that's has something to do with what I stated earlier
So yess if there's evil there has to be a almighty GOD
@antbrown9066 Says:
A theism implies lack of belief in God. So no belief system. Incorrect. Atheists do have a belief system. They believe there is no God. This is not lack of belief, it is a strong belief system.
@cnault3244 Says:
"Do atheists need God to make their case?"
Do people who have no belief leprechauns exist need leprechauns?
@zargisan9017 Says:
Why do you think that God sent us Jesus at the time period that he did and not earlier or later?
@user-xg6tw3qh9t Says:
Baffles me how evidence of God is literally everywhere yet ppl are in denial
Yet the same ppl are strong believers of aliens and need no evidence for this 🤯
@144_The_Sheep_Banner Says:
Ironic isn't it? 😂
@festushaggen2563 Says:
The worst of all crimes is the crime of unbellief. Calling God a liar by rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Jesus left Heaven to suffer and die for all of us and the unbeliever says "not good enough". Horrific.
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