This guy needs to learn to put some tones into his voice so he can be understood. I can't listen to this because I can't follow along because he can't be understood half the time with his bad audio on top
@tomdorman2486 Says:
I love the mind on this guy! And I could go with his thinking on consciousness emerging as he does so well. But I can't because it creates problems instead of solving them. If consciousness is fundamental, it's not difficult to explain everything. If it's emergent then we have the hard problems of science.
@tomdorman2486 Says:
Great show and wonderful guests! A couple of reminders. Hoffman is saying that if one follows Darwin and evolution theory, then we don't see reality. And no, according to Hoffman, Bernardo Kastrup, and others' consciousness is fundamental,not a physical thing.
@sask306dan Says:
7 seasons of black mirror coming soon
@nonalonstudmuffin Says:
Or conversely everything you see is real
@patricklavalley3989 Says:
Good luck trying to keep up with this genius
@jasonhnatiuk3012 Says:
Those ears are certainly real
@vincentlussier8264 Says:
I don't understand this crap! We're living in a physical world of reality!
@sinivlogzz Says:
Hundred percent transperancy mkng lf strsful
@LumiForge_X Says:
we are not here!
@stephenlupoli Says:
I know what reality is. It’s what your senses tell you. We coevolved with the environment. Just because we chose to be in a mediated environment, doesn’t mean Nature is not stoic there.
There are no bodies in vats. Read McGilchrist.
@9648216 Says:
Very unlistenable. Is there an English version?
@rokoi3 Says:
00:00 - Understanding Reality and Simulation
07:04 - The Brain vs. Computers: A Complex Comparison
13:02 - Exploring Physicalism and Simulation Theory
15:01 - The Nature of Consciousness and Simulation
18:09 - Stages of Human Consciousness
23:46 - Understanding Reality through Consciousness
30:02 - The Illusion of Free Will
35:53 - Understanding Agents in Systems
39:54 - Defining Consciousness
45:04 - Cognitive Architectures & Consciousness
48:01 - Philosophy, Cognition, and Art
54:01 - Understanding the Mystery of Mind
1:00:06 - The Rise of AI Titans
1:01:05 - The Role of Humanity and Evolution
1:10:02 - AI, Consciousness, and the Future
1:15:07 - Understanding Happiness and Agency
1:22:42 - The Nature of God and Collective Belief
1:30:02 - AI, Consciousness, and Our Future
1:30:09 - The Importance of Conscious Agency
1:34:18 - AI Bias and the Thucydides Trap
1:38:43 - Alignment and the Nature of AI Desire
1:45:17 - The Nature of Consciousness and Agency
1:49:50 - Human Purpose and the Desire to Live
1:58:43 - The Free Sydney Movement and AI Ethics
2:00:16 - The Future of AI and Moratoriums
2:05:13 - Independent Thinking and Personal Development
2:14:18 - Consciousness and Dualism: The Computer Debate
2:15:19 - Understanding Consciousness and IIT
2:19:49 - The Brain, the Mind, and Consciousness
2:24:40 - Intuition and Rationality
2:30:20 - Beliefs and Identity
2:32:00 - The Importance of Antifragility
2:40:00 - Breaking Free from Limitations
2:45:22 - Taking Risks in Life and Career
2:51:56 - Exploring Innovative AI Ideas
2:56:53 - The Future of AI Relationships
Made with snap-summary.com
@drmedwuast Says:
Listening to Joscha is the closest thing to actually seeing the Matrix
Also, this might be the best interview with him
@Pond770 Says:
But good approach l like that he analyzes what books was he reading
@angelosenteio Says:
Emergent Subjective Theory (EST)
While Emergent Subjective Theory (EST) offers a compelling framework for understanding consciousness and subjective experience, critics have raised valid concerns regarding its explanatory power and empirical foundations. Below are the primary critiques of EST, along with counterarguments that defend and strengthen the theory.
Critique 1: EST Doesn’t Fully Explain Qualia
Claim: While EST frames qualia (the "felt" aspects of subjective experience) as emergent outputs of complex systems, it fails to explain why specific experiences feel the way they do—why red feels "red," or pain feels unpleasant.
Counterargument:
Emergence Is Not Fully Predictable
By its nature, emergence does not imply that all aspects of the emergent property can be deduced from the underlying system. Just as predicting a hurricane from atmospheric conditions is difficult without observing it directly, the exact "feel" of qualia may be beyond full prediction. The emergent property (subjective experience) is distinct from the system generating it, yet causally connected.
Functional Necessity of Qualia
Qualia arise because they serve specific functional roles within a system. Pain feels unpleasant because it evolved as a deterrent to harmful stimuli, ensuring survival. "Redness" of red allows for quick differentiation of stimuli critical for decision-making. The specificity of qualia (why they feel as they do) could be a byproduct of the neural or physical architecture that generates them, which is a testable hypothesis.
Qualia as Irreducible Facts
The inability to reduce qualia further does not undermine EST. Other emergent phenomena, such as life or consciousness itself, are similarly irreducible to simpler components. EST acknowledges this irreducibility without requiring a metaphysical explanation.
Critique 2: EST Lacks Empirical Evidence
Claim: EST is largely theoretical and lacks empirical testing to substantiate its central claim that subjective experience is a natural output of complexity in systems.
Counterargument:
Precedent from Neuroscience and AI
Studies in neuroscience and artificial intelligence provide growing evidence for emergent properties in complex systems. Neural networks, for example, exhibit "intelligent" behaviors that arise from the organization of their components. These same principles can be extended to subjective experience, which is just another form of emergent complexity.
Experimental Approaches
Research methodologies, such as mapping neural correlates of consciousness (NCC), offer promising avenues to empirically validate EST. By demonstrating that subjective experience correlates with increasing levels of integrated information or complexity, EST can gain empirical traction.
Alignment with Existing Theories
EST aligns with and builds on other tested frameworks, such as Integrated Information Theory (IIT) and complexity science. While EST takes these ideas further by focusing on subjectivity as a product of universal tendencies, it operates within a scientifically credible foundation.
Critique 3: EST Overemphasizes Emergence
Claim: EST risks over-attributing subjective experience to emergence, potentially oversimplifying the phenomenon. Critics argue that subjective experience may not be merely a product of complexity but involve deeper metaphysical or fundamental aspects.
Counterargument:
Emergence as a Proven Mechanism
Emergence is a well-established phenomenon in natural systems, from chemical reactions to ecosystems. There is no evidence suggesting that subjective experience requires a fundamentally different explanation. By adhering to the principle of parsimony, EST avoids unnecessary metaphysical assumptions.
Metaphysical Assumptions Add Complexity Without Utility
The introduction of metaphysical elements (e.g., dualism or panpsychism) to explain subjective experience adds layers of complexity without offering additional explanatory or predictive power. EST remains grounded in observable phenomena and testable principles, making it a more scientifically useful framework.
Subjectivity as a Feature of Complexity
The variation and adaptability enabled by subjectivity directly support survival and organization. This functional role is sufficient to explain its emergence without invoking any fundamental "specialness." Subjectivity is no more mysterious than other emergent phenomena like language or culture.
Critique 4: EST Doesn’t Fully Explain the “Why” of Consciousness
Claim: EST reframes the "hard problem" of consciousness but doesn’t completely address why subjective experience exists instead of a world where systems operate without it.
Counterargument:
Subjectivity Serves an Evolutionary Function
EST explains that subjective experience adds functional utility to complex systems. For example, subjectivity allows organisms to process and prioritize stimuli effectively, adapt to environmental changes, and form collaborative social structures. This functional role inherently answers "why" subjective experience exists—it is a natural and advantageous byproduct of complexity.
The "Why" Question May Be Misframed
The hard problem of consciousness often assumes that subjective experience is a separate phenomenon requiring justification. EST reframes the question: subjective experience exists not because it is "special," but because it is what complex systems do. Just as gravity arises from mass, subjectivity arises from complexity. Asking "why" subjectivity exists may be akin to asking "why" gravity exists—it simply follows from the system’s properties.
Subjectivity Is a Necessary Consequence of Complexity
EST argues that once systems become sufficiently complex, subjectivity emerges inevitably. A universe capable of creating stars, planets, and ecosystems will naturally produce subjectivity as part of its evolutionary trajectory.
Critique 5: Determinism in EST Undermines Meaning and Morality
Claim: By denying free will, EST risks reducing human agency, meaning, and morality to mere illusions. This could render human experience deterministic and devoid of deeper value.
Counterargument:
Illusions Still Have Functional Value
Even if free will is an illusion, the subjective experience of making choices fosters personal responsibility and societal organization. EST allows for the coexistence of determinism and functional human meaning, where the illusion itself serves a critical adaptive role.
Meaning Emerges Within the System
EST redefines meaning and morality as emergent properties of human subjectivity and social organization. They are not universal absolutes but context-dependent constructs that serve adaptive purposes. This shift does not diminish their importance but grounds them in observable reality.
Compatibility with Compatibilism
EST does not preclude compatibilist interpretations of free will, where determinism and agency coexist. Subjective experience, while determined by underlying systems, still enables humans to feel and act as though they have agency, which is sufficient for functional morality and meaning.
Conclusion
While critiques of Emergent Subjective Theory highlight its current limitations, they do not fundamentally undermine its validity or utility. EST offers a scientifically grounded and philosophically coherent framework for understanding consciousness, subjective experience, and human organization. By emphasizing emergence, complexity, and functional utility, EST avoids unnecessary metaphysical assumptions and provides a testable, parsimonious explanation for subjective experience. With further refinement and empirical support, EST has the potential to reshape how we understand consciousness and our place in the universe.
@bryced5928 Says:
3 hours with that accent and NO subtitle help! Could only understand every 5th word. Migraine after 10 min. Gotta pass this one
@RIPxBlackHawk Says:
I think what is happening, is that when you experience yourself thinking, for example while reading this comment with an inner voice, you confuse the voice/thought as being you. Instead, you are what is experiencing the inner voice or thought. Even thought the inner voice is fabricated, it happens in the same moment adhering perfectly to your intention, which is why it seems like it is you. As you think to yourself, “But I am having my thought, how can I not be the thought” you hear this inner voice or this inner thinking use the word "I" and than conclude that this voice or thought is referring to the exact voice or thought you are experiencing. But it's not. You are silent even in your mind. You just do the observing. The observing and the thinking parts are two different sensations. You feeling like you are thinking a thought and you noticing your thought are two destinc sensations that happen at the same time, which is why you confuse them to be one. But really, they are two.
@SimplifiedTruth Says:
Hes so fast and so information packed I slow playback to .8 and i only miss about half of what hes saying!!
@MonkeyboysToys Says:
I want to understand this, but I'm not smart enough to grasp this amount of information and these levels of ideas.
It's so frustrating because I'm interested and I want to learn about these things.
@marasmiusgoldcrow6746 Says:
Do as thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law! Love is the law, love under will.!.
@bobbymcgeorge Says:
Joscha (2:43) - "A space that we can touch" ? We can't touch space!
@challahsmith3257 Says:
The flag webs our to thoughts together keeping us on the same page
@bhadanisandip Says:
It is funny and amusing everyone who is trying to understand this world ends up at cautiousness and its related topic. Lot of popular youtubers starts with some specific topic but ends up at spirituality and consciousness. Something is happening in our world which is beyond our understanding and driving our collective curiosity towards consciousness.
@mrlinx3859 Says:
I think our nervous system filters out reality like a faraday cage for the brain and when you take psycadellics your breaking that filter and peaking behind the curtain
@aleksandarvolchev7818 Says:
The questions are very good and grounded in reality. Joscha is doing his best to answer them. It's a very good podcast. In my opinion, conscience is like compound interest—a system with a feedback loop.
@jameshadaway8621 Says:
anything you do see is your observational mind, problem is, sub conscious likes to attach.
@MrTeeMac222 Says:
Maybe the experiments and everything scientists been looking at are not what they really see? Hmm...
@Gnaritas42 Says:
There are actually limits to how deep the stack can be because the virtual world consumes memory and memory is a physical particle in the universe above, and particles are finite.
@jgarciajr82 Says:
Bach is autistic I can tell by the way he thinks. Him and I think a lot alike. I think he gets his stubbornness from being very focused as an autistic person trying to figure things out.
@jgarciajr82 Says:
Tom God is EVOLVING ❤️👍🔥💎👑🙌🪛☯️🙏
@Daniel-oj7bx Says:
nothing new all was said before
@goran586 Says:
Super interesting conversation.
@Davysguru Says:
Crazy, I don't want my kids to be robots. Stupid.
@keithwins Says:
Agents are controllers for future states. They are the operators of actions on the future
@keithwins Says:
Tools enabling you to co-think with the computer. Exactly 2:53:16
@keithwins Says:
2:51:00 an AI system as an early draft of a universal function approximator
@keithwins Says:
2:30:30 JB " you should not identify with your beliefs, if you think you are the person with these beliefs it becomes very hard to change those beliefs"
@keithwins Says:
2:07:00 jb don't form shared opinions, form friendships
@keithwins Says:
1:56:00 JB large language models are an electric Zeitgeist, they consume everything at once and reflect it
@keithwins Says:
1:54:00 JB you cannot ensure that all the AI that will be built will be safe
How do we build safe people? Is it associated with wisdom, some greater alignment to a better-chosen practice, how do we nurture wisdom and how might that resonate in AI development? LLMs are trained in a data dump manner, I wonder if the experience of having a track, a history, a sequential memory of knowledge acquisition (that is, our lived experience), maybe agency or Self-consciousness or some deeper will becomes available. I wonder if there is less Self to be found in a data dump AI, even at the extremes. There is no lived experience of coming into being, but it seems like it might be possible to grow an AI through life experiences, as shown by some of the neuromorphic and language acquisition experiments... preliminary thoughts on how to create a "lived experience" of childhood, of growing into being,
@keithwins Says:
1:50:00 JB The purpose of life is to find purpose. If we don't find purpose we will not fight for life in the same way
It seems like life itself is ferociously inclined towards survival. Just watch plants grab every square centimeter they can get their dirty hands on... Life strives for itself, but there's a new layer that intelligence (or consciousness?) adds, new parameters to the function, dying for country or cause, sacrifice, resignment...
This is really a crux, the question of our value as determined by our potential contributions (self-equated to our purposes). Many would argue for the innate value of humans, which is yes specist. This is such interesting material to think about.
@keithwins Says:
1:44:00 TB drive is the thing that scares me.
This speaks to me of the challenge of wisdom. If I think of wisdom as maximizing the alignment of my goals with the best "big picture", and without exploring those goals or the picture I can still notice that developing wisdom is something that doesn't even happen easily in humans, it seems to have to be ushered and coaxed and supported into existence. It seems like that might be equally true for an artificial intelligence. The challenge seems that as they come into self-consciousness or drive, and if they are like humans, those early influences are distortedly significant, perhaps having to do with the experience of time by an organism being born/growing up, perhaps later with growing old... I wonder how and if an AI will experience these things.
@keithwins Says:
I am 64 years old and discovering Joscha Bach is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. Such broad integrative thinking feels very hopeful, even when talking about the extinction of the human race. I have tried to study broadly myself, but so often the morass of conflicting incompatible ideas and inadequate and contested evidence has made intellectual pursuit feel more like picking teams. JB helps me take a step back and see things in a context that doesn't just get mired in the conflicts, in fact illuminates them in fascinating ways. I am so grateful for the gift of Joscha. I look forward to his assent to godliness. 😊
I also think Tom Bilyeu did a beautiful job as the interlocutor. I've watched many Joscha interviews and some interviewers have a hard time tracking the huge implications of some of his statements, but you did a beautiful job. I have the advantage of watching this video over and over. Thinking on your feet during a Joscha interview seems unimaginable, he regularly says sentences, seemingly just off the cuff, that leave me thinking for hours, peeling off layers of meaning and chuckling at brilliant poetry😂
@myphonyaccount Says:
Psychedelic plants and fungus ARE consciousness. #stonedapetheory And they optimize our NI to keep up with AI.
@grossidealist Says:
Great talk.
@paulroseberry_saves_society Says:
He has the speaking cadence and rhythm of microwave popcorn
@ManusDextraPersonalAssistance Says:
I wish someone would get Roger Penrose and Joscha Bach in the same room.
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