This was the first time that Jonathan Pagaeu, John Vervaeke, and Jordan Peterson all sat down together in person. Recorded in Dr. Peterson's home, and prominently featuring many of Kwakwaka?wakw carver Charles Joseph's incredible statues and carvings, this recording may require a few complete watchthroughs. The conversation was created to intentionally dive deep into the areas of systems of perception and their impacts on our abilities to prioritize, the nature of YHWH (Judeo-Christian God), and the exploration of the True, the Good, and the Beautiful. This conversation is only the beginning of many more conversations to have between these three and on these topics. Please comment any insights that you have derived from this video, my team will be paying close attention to the progress on these ideas.
Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. Jordan and Jonathan have an ongoing dialogue surrounding Judeo-Christian narrative, reality, and symbolism among many other topics.
John Vervaeke is an Assistant Professor in Cognitive Psychology and Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto. His work constructs a bridge between science and spirituality in order to understand the experience of meaningfulness and the cultivation of wisdom so as to afford awakening from the meaning crisis.
If you want to hear the rest of my conversation, please go to https://www.dailywire.com/watch and become a member today. Thanks.
This video is sponsored by Elysium Health. Visit: http://explorematter.com/jordan
Check out Jonathan Pageau's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtCTSf3UwRU14nYWr_xm-dQ
https://thesymbolicworld.com
(speaking)
https://pageaucarvings.com
(carving)
https://orthodoxartsjournal.org
(writing)
Watch more from John Vervaeke: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
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Introduction to Aristotle's Ethics: How to Lead a Good Life Online Course: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/aristotles-ethics
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Winston Churchill and Statesmanship: https://online.hillsdale.edu/landing/winston-churchill-and-statesmanship
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4:05 relevance realization is like the collective unconscious element that Jung presented - AI may develop a form of a personal unconscious but doesn't seem to have the capacity to form a collective unconscious. potentially, this may in part make us unique from a hyper-intelligent AI
5:45 prioritizing principle operates unconsciously - implicit/unconscious self-organzing principle
7:30 this is what religion helps with - an integration framework for identity, especially if you believe in its context
9:23 great point about shifting the problem by labeling it “an internal homunculus - dynamic and self-organizing is a great way to move forth with it
10:48 fundamental sense of agency
17:00 prioritization is a multi-dimensional optimal gripping
24:23 nobody willing does evil - they do what they seem to be a good in some fashion (this is similar to what Sam Harris objectifies in religion - the risk of buying into a narrative of evil and using history as evidence. Richard Dawkins sees this in a similar light, expect conceptualized it as - if we were to have this drive toward accepting/having a narrative framework that's susceptible to violence, that would be a short coming of our biology and that's not good.
25:55 evil is not a perversion of the good - but this can be wrapped up in their own narrative; still driven by a coherent spirit. delineating the ethic of evil isn't merely chaotic
35:40 god is what's common in the good, the true, and the beautiful. I wonder if this relates to the framework of perception (such as a religious text) or the state of observance itself. because I remember in on of Dr. Vervaeke's dialogoses, he brought up that god is what allows us to self-actualize in a sense - so the integrative framework but not the meditative sense itself that we're brought into
36:30 "The primacy of beauty, the centrality of goodness, and the ultimacy of truth." isn't this basically what Sir Roger Penrose was alluding to in Dr. Peterson's podcast with him? Penrose said he "considered the platonic truth - truth, beauty and morality." This was timestamp 1:32:30 in "Asking a Theoretical Physicist About the Physics of Consciousness | Roger Penrose & Jordan Peterson"
38:20 realization is always a comparative judgment
39:13 "beauty is when apperances disclose reality" - similar to how a meditative state, such as a prayer, allows a firmer integration into one's identity bc of the sense of the "truth"
39:47 "make your bed" is similar to how Liver King says eating liver is the gateway to the "nine ancestrial tenets" and the lifestyle/integrative placebo of it is what he's ultimately selling
43:49 smooth out beauty in order to perceive reality
45:50 primacy of love and beauty are adjacent to one another. fundamental egocentrism - fundamental way in which you prioritize your perception on the world (can draw similarities to Dr. Anil Seth's work on how our preception/predective-error processing is a sort of sustained hallucination in which the sense of self arises to serve the environment
47:03 can't reason your way out of egocentrism, other than love - love is when you recognize something other than yourself as real
48:00 relationship to your future self is representative of your relationship with others
48:58 like a form of manifestation
52:30 replace the shallow aesthetic as a new representation of beauty
54:10 Dr. Vervaeke's criticism of Dr. Peterson
55:50 it's like the is ought problem
57:50 mapping intelligibility was solved by evolution
58:45 evolution pre-suposes an ontology in which mapping intelligibility works
59:20 notion of ontological/epistimological logos = pre-condition for scientific attidue. so it's embedded in a sense
1:00:05 every attempt to explain intelligibility presuposes it as a fundamental thing - promise is kept = the good
1:01:40 a prior of being - this is where people who believe in panpsychism may come to their conclusions
1:02:20 "i think therefore I am" creates a circular argument bc there's a presupposition of what you're trying to explain
1:03:15 this is similar to how most people refer to that "being" in third person
1:07:30 instinct of awe in animals
1:10:45 it's the same thing with how prayer allows you to easier "connect with god"
1:16:30 musical intelligibility
1:21:22 "a problem that appears anywhere anyways" like the title everything everywhere all at once haha. that point about the father, son, and holy spirit representing this multiplicity is interesting
1:27:55 meta narrative
1:29:50 naming things is different from telling the story
1:32:05 point where Dr. Vervaeke disagrees with Pageau/Dr. Peterson
1:33:20 narrative, nomalogical, and self-traanscending dimension are irreducible to eachother
1:33:40 ontology isn't captured inside epistemology because epistemology can not reach to the full extent of the multiplicity of ontology. Dr. Peterson summarizes Dr. Vervaeke's argument: no matter what the story is, there's something that's real that's beyond that story
1:35:20 that which transcends the current narrative - point of agreement
1:37:25 solution to the meaning crisis doesn't need narrative - this is similar to what Sam Harris would agree with and RIchard Dawkin would see this, if fundamental, as a shortcoming of our biology - "why must we conceptualize xyz in narrative form..."
1:40:00 the idea of music is a narrative is a difficult conceptualization that may lead astray. so the narrative is a result of your perception and not its implicitness in the object - it's object of meaning without you assigning one to it
1:42:16 Jung , science, and alchemy
1:43:16 you're categorizing context relative to what you're aiming at
1:44:15 the point of disagreement is that everything is reducible to the "narrative ethic" in relation to identity
1:45:49 narrative isn't about causal laws, it's about an irrefutable cuasal pathway
1:47:13 throughline of all the aspects isn't an aspect, the throughline of all the stories isn't a story - point of contention
1:49:49 must simalteanouesly move up the abstraction level in a narrative sense as you abstract from scientific truths to the universal truth - otherwise we'd misuse the nomological (seen in identity politics)
@kparish9644 Says:
It seems like our beautiful 20th century thinkers landed in Canada for this century
Thank you for your brilliant words
@kodokanshiai2143 Says:
Petersons so brilliant partly because when he doesn’t understand something, he doesn’t hesitate to ask for clarity.
@DreamWeaver-f9n Says:
It seems to me that what the conflict boils down to could be expressed in the phrase..
"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao"
@gerryhebert-w1g Says:
sin is a sin if you know its a sin
"forgive them for they did not know" jesus christ
@gerryhebert-w1g Says:
"and he saw it was good" genesis
on the good topic
ignore evil inpower the good
@BlueHouseCreations Says:
Does anyone know the title of the book John spoke about when they were talking about beauty and how it prepares us for truth and justice?
@siyarg7423 Says:
Felt like I was watching a Socratic Dialogue, LIVE
@Jjungian_classroom Says:
1:53:25 what jordan says is very true.
.
But when jonatan and jhon agree on the man is the antilogycal truth(materialy true) he stops. On that second my mind find the missing link. U see jordan is always obsessed with story. He belive Their is Meta narrative behind the narrative we love. He is true because in Bible their is a verse says "No one knows God but his son narrate to us".
So as a bible says if u wanna know the father u need to know their is a meta narrative.
.
Thanks God. Thanks all of u guys(techers)
@RyanSacksRome Says:
At 1:19:00 what is the Idoce?? that John is talking about
@raymondlangdon7826 Says:
I get alot out of Jordan's lectures. I have a very hard time finishing these conversations or interviews because Jorden just can't listen to someone else talk. I'm not too far in, and probably won't make it through to the end. Jorden, you're brilliant, but🤫.
@MuneerAlrabadi-n4x Says:
I no him he cheet sin bad
@Fenekucci Says:
This is jamming and these guys seems to have a lot of fun
@anothermous3 Says:
36:30 "the primacy of beauty, centrality of goodness, ultimacy of truth"
sounds like a beginning middle and end!
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
What is not discussed here is the polarization between the intellect and the sense mind. There is also intuition and how it works. It has been said that calm reason and calm feeling have to exist in order for intuition to manifest. There may be false intuitions that are not objective but mixed with some taint of like or dislike or lack of objectivity.
@TavernBrawlers Says:
The idea of the neoplatonist silk road is intriguing. I was hoping for you guys to dig into how what John was saying would track with the Logos as a person. John's Agape observation was a great illumination for me.
@patricksampsonmusic Says:
These three together is absolutely unreal!
@jackrogers1115 Says:
Jonathan light-heartedly mugging Jordan off at 16:37 about his ties/suits
@alangiaconelli2919 Says:
These guys are smart and are talking about what we should be exploring. But I think they are looking at all the different trees instead of the forest as a whole.
@BF-non Says:
John speaks to me more tbh. More grounded in the science.
@OMGFishoo Says:
Listening to this I realized that I need better friends to contend with. I wish I had access to these kinds of conversations. Because currently I feel like I'm the crazy one who thinks of those things alone.
@Ww-jh3es Says:
Judgement (priority, value, ethics-giving meaning to neutral things) is micro levels of making CHOICEs from seeing separate fractal parts within unity. All stemming from good/bad duality. The mechanics is clear.
Where does meaning come from and why. Meaning is projection of ourselves being judged within. If we see an evil judged within we will project or prioritize recognition of evil outside. If we feel loved everything outside is seen thru that lense, and we are not going to give lack of love meaning to the outside. School shooter is only projecting their judgement of themselves within which is lack of love and wish to suicide - outward by threatening their love and suiciding others, ultimately to feel not alone and feel loved by forced empathy in a way. I feel Jordan goes thru what all of us should go thru- delving deeper to the animus, recognizing the evil within us that is recognizing so much evil we empathize with outside. Not by ignoring which all do because it’s too painful to admit we lack love in some way, but dealing with it to give ourselves and all those who withheld it from us -the love.
@noreenquinn3844 Says:
Maybe your mother got to like the paintings because you gave them to her and she loved you 😊. She looked for the beauty in them because of her love for you. Maybe these wouldn't, however, be her natural preference. Would you put her preference for painting up in your house? Could you see the beauty in these because of her?
@Unfortunateevents-z2d Says:
I really enjoy watching Dr. Peterson actually enjoy engaging with the conversation
@AdrianHackman Says:
Great talk.
I wonder how C G Jungs idea of integration of the Shadow is compatible with Neo-platonism. If evil has no ontological status it have no substance therefore it cannot possibly be integrated. Awestruck by evil? Jakob Böhme is an intersting thinker; the notion of that we perceive darkness in God when in sin and that the eating of the apple in the garden of Eden was a necessary step in humanities spiritual evolution. I have been reading C G Jung "Dream analysis part 1" page 243 on "Bolshevism is a widening of consciousness". Previously Prometheus is mentioned on page 242. Perhaps the Grail myth contains both Christian morality and integration? I understand what you have to say about the Luciferian intellect.
We preceive duality in this dimension where we are: in between for instance good and evil, light and darkness, feminine and masculine etc. The goal must be to merge the opposites for wholeness. We need both Logos and Eros. Is the male hierarchy within the persona system?
@chnel3 Says:
Thank you.
@TheDraeleon Says:
Thank you so much for this... God less! ❤
@1214gooner Says:
If evolution isn’t also “narratively” true then it is not actually true. Uh-oh.
@1214gooner Says:
The image of Mary stepping on the serpent is not tantamount to the ape imitating the predator😂Mary is looking up towards the Logos above the hierarchy and the predator looks down!
@panda_tree Says:
Amazing stuff. We're all aiming at Christ.
@David-sz5ge Says:
Gentlemen, the logos only appears as a story through the lens of a mind that perceives time as a continuum of moments. This is, of course a limit we impose on reality unless we transcend the mind and perceive time as a simultaneous dimension. From the perspective of time as a continuum, the logos must be a story because the present moment is ever changing, which means truth must be incarnate action that exists in alignment with being. While doing so, it unfolds as a narrative. However, beyond this limited perspective, this logos is the super ordinate principle from which everything springs from; like a singularity in a black hole and, therefore, it is not a story. You’re both right and wrong, as am I, which brings us to the contradiction represented on the cross.
@jaytaylor3273 Says:
I wonder how Neil Tyson would manage to navigate through this discussion? Does he believe he is outside of science outside the world as if he is putting the puzzle together or does he believe he is a part of the puzzle; wouldn't that determine where he would fit and what he would offer in this discussion
@Anni.things Says:
Samurai, the divine protection
@sea.imagineering Says:
My daughters surgeon made pictures during surgery, she showed me them from a distance, because yeah I found it hard to look at. My baby who I brought in the world perfectly, seen taken apart on a surgery table. 😢
@GraceSpunge Says:
The word (the imperative narrative, the key of David) frees Spiritual DNA in adult neurogenesis in the elect (like a car key fob), rewiring the brain (conscience) to seek The Word in the word, and spread the word to the world. (Galatians 3:5)(Romans 12:2)(Rev 3:7)
@User-mh3pw Says:
It’s crazy how a year ago I could barely follow what was discussed. Now, I’m at the “oh yeah, I agree” for much more than before. Being able to understand what is being said feels like watching water absorb into the soil of a recently watered plant. I must admit, I’m only 13 minutes in and it’s probable I will take back all that was said 😂. Regardless, I’m thankful for the 1st 13 minutes.
@davidfarrall Says:
“A weed is a Plant you don’t want”. God decides on this. Sometimes, a really beautiful weed drowns amongst many established weeds/Plants. Jesus, for example. We struggle to find our inner Jesus or Buddha. God wields the Sword of Damocles as the Final Arbiter.
@mycamaroandme3763 Says:
More please
@epi_sto_letes Says:
EditAnything & mock projects. Two good tips.
Gratias maximas.
@ornateturtle34 Says:
Anyone else reminded of Storylord from Rick and Morty when JBP keeps insisting on narrative?
@ornateturtle34 Says:
What a great conversation! I love to see people basically doing Christology in the 21st century. Discussing the dual nature of the logos as: pure mind-rational-otherworldly (God), truly human incarnate-empirical-real. The Silk Road thread is an important project central to the crisis of meaning. It reminds me of the conundrum you see scholars and critics of the left stuck on namely how to insist on the truth without abolishing pluralism. Is the logos as discussion the answer? Is this just a redo of the dialectic in some form? Perhaps this is the spirit (and also the third person in the trilogy).
@THEFIRSTANDTHELAST77 Says:
WOUNDS DONE TO SIN THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS BRING HEALING TO THE RIGHTEOUS IN US👉🏿👉🏿👉🏿 Isaiah (53:5) But He was pierced for our sins, bruised for our transgressions. The punishment that gives us peace fell on Him, and by His wounds we are healed.👉🏿👉🏿👉🏿 (Job 5:18) He makes the wound and He binds it up; He wounds, and His hand heals.——THE HEAVENLY FATHER THROUGH HIS SPIRIT MADE HIS SON FLESH AND BLOOD TO ALLURE AND CATCH SATAN INTO HIS SON'S BODY AND THERE HE WILL STRIKE AND KILL ALL LUSTS ALL THE POWER OF SIN, TO LET US ESCAPE AND INSTALL RIGHTEOUSNESS IN THE PLACE OF SIN, HE HEAVENLY FATHER BRINGED THE WOUND TO THE ANIMAL IN US AND ALSO HEALED US BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, THE FATHER BEAT SATAN AT HIS HOME ON THE GROUND OF THE FLESH IN THE BODY OF THE SON, ATTRACTING SATAN TO HIS GROUND SAINT AT HOME THROUGH THE WORD INCARNATED IN THE FLESH AND HIMSELF ON THE UNLAWFUL LAND AT HOME WITH SATAN——MAKING POSSIBLE THE FIGHT BETWEEN THEM THROUGH THE SON INCARNATED, THROUGH THE SON, GOD COULD ENTER SATAN AND SATAN TO GOD, SATAN DEFEATED TO HIM AT HOME AND IN MOVEMENT MEANS TO GOD HOME, AND THIS INSTANTLY THROUGH THE VICEVERSALIZATION OF THE CLOTHES WHEN GOD THROWS THE CLOTHES OF THE RIGHTEOUS OVER THE SON OR WHERE SATAN WAS CAPTURED, AND THROWS THE CLOTHES OF LAWFULNESS WHERE HE WAS IN THE SON OR HE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE, AND THUS THE ENTRY OF THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WAS MADE POSSIBLE TO THE UNJUST AND THE ENTRY OF THE UNJUST TO THE RIGHTEOUS, THE RIGHTEOUS LET HIMSELF BE BEATEN BY THE UNJUST BECAUSE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE SHOULD BEAT THE UNJUST ONE INSTANTLY THROUGH VICEVERALIZATION. 👉🏿👉🏿👉🏿 Hosea (6:1) Come let us return to the Lord ! For He has torn us, but He will also heal us; He has smitten us, but He will also bind up our wounds. AMEN🧠❤️THE OVERCOMER OVER PHYSICAL DEATH HAS OVERCOME SPIRITUAL DEATH.❤️🧠Hebrews (2:14) Even so, as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, so also He Himself he was likewise a partaker of them, that by death he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil, AMEN.
@Anh-Cali Says:
My head is hurting but i still love it! 😂 bc
@amoh5 Says:
As a Christian, I think spiritual and emotional are the same thing, that which manages feelings and morality.
We have 2 minds: The physical mind that rationalizes physical matters of the physical world.
Then we have the emotional/spiritual mind that rationalizes emotions and the moral world.
I don't think we have to use mysticism and mythologics to explain morality, it can be explained in a more down to earth and practical language.
I'm very much in support of scientific psychology because I prefer more down to earth explanatory language, I get really tired of listening to mystical mythological explanations. The real world isn't mythological and mystical, its brutal and challenging, therefore they should use realistic explanatory language.
I also think the Bible literature desperately needs to be modernized and updated. It contains too much medieval literature of mysticism and mythologics that drives people nuts.
I'm a moralist Christian, I don't care too much about mystical and mythological literature. I like down to earth common sense type of language. 😊 ✝️
@rsandy4077 Says:
Please more of these three together!!!!!!!!!!! Ok? Anybody hear me! 😂
@letitflow1120 Says:
Navel gazers
@MANCILLIA Says:
Why does my low iq brain feel like i could actually understand what these three powerful brains were manifesting through words 😂 😢 🤯
@PerNystedt Says:
I wonder what the sum total of their IQ is... It's amazing to listen to their conversation.
@MrHypermoto Says:
At first I felt like Pageau might be the odd man out in this conversation, but he has a cosmic Meta view that really helps to mitigate Vervaeke and JBP's tendency to rabbit hole on certain ideas. Its like the Shaman and the Scientists coming together. I really appreciated his perspectives throughout the talk, even if the other two were speaking more.
@MarshAgobert Says:
Tibetan Buddhists utilize the Graveyard (charnel grounds) as a tremendous boost toward enlightenment.
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