This episode was recorded on November 9th, 2021.
Jordan Peterson, Gregg Hurwitz, and Rick Geddes meet to discuss the debate surrounding the multi-billion dollar infrastructure bill currently going through the US congress.
Rick Geddes is a professor in the Department of Policy Analysis and Management at Cornell University and a well-recognized expert in American infrastructure policy and development. He has done extensive research on infrastructure, including but not limited to the funding, financing, operation, and maintenance of major projects with a focus on new technologies.
Gregg Hurwitz was today's co-host. Gregg is a former student of Jordan's at Harvard. He is now a bestselling scriptwriter, producer, and novelist. In the years leading up to the presidential election, Gregg has been working with an independent team of Hollywood writers, producers, and directors to design a moderate, far-reaching political message for the democratic party.
Find more Rick Geddes online here:
https://aei.org/profile/r-richard-geddes
Find More Gregg Hurwitz on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/GreggHurwitz
Check out Gregg's bestselling books:
https://amazon.com/Gregg-Hurwitz/e/B001IXPXTG
[00:30] Jordan introduces this week's guests to discuss the newly-proposed infrastructure legislation (winter '21)—a crucial bill for the American people
[03:28] Geddes gives an overview of infrastructure and his background therein
[07:46] The monumental accomplishment of the US interstate highway system. Could it be built again today?
[11:10] 'You've heard the adage that time is money. [That's] certainly the case with infrastructure. When a project gets delayed by the NEPA process for say 5 years, the amount of extra money spent... is enormous, it can sometimes double" Rick Geddes
[14:42] Gregg Hurwitz highlights the unsophisticated way the media and most politicians are currently handling the infrastructure bill
[16:02] 'It seems like we can get very little sane discussion in the media on the role that regulation plays in building a renewing infrastructure" GH
[16:40] Extra delay and cost in federally funded projects is a regressive tax that hurts the poor and middle class
[22:02] Pressure on the infrastructure bill from climate change. Looking at the evolution of new technologies to improve the efficiency of current infrastructure
[25:49] 'If infrastructure development means replacing inefficient use of resources with efficient use of resources, that should be a net gain on the economic side, so it helps poor people, and it should also have environmental benefits" Dr. Peterson
[26:07] What are our current top infrastructure priorities? What needs to be addressed and fixed ASAP?
[35:31] We need to capitalize more on the utility of combined public and private ventures in infrastructure projects
[52:32] The importance of defining and communicating what a successful infrastructure project looks like
[55:36] Given our systemic problems, how can we give politicians and private firms a positive incentive for meaningful participation?
[01:03:14] You can only focus on so many projects before outsourcing becomes a necessity
[01:12:19] You'd be extremely naive to believe that the people sustaining our infrastructure systems are only in it for personal gain
[01:16:48] The extraordinary reliability of the societal infrastructure system
[01:18:47] 'The idea that it's just power that drives people to the top of organizations isn't true because, if it were, we would have many more psychopaths and they would be way more successful" JP
[01:23:15] What about infrastructure projects that should be started immediately?
[01:25:44] 'This is the ultimate bipartisan thing because it will reduce greenhouse gases, diesel emissions, improve the efficiency of our infrastructure, and it's right there on the table" RG
[01:26:21] Outro
#InfrastructureBill #Bipartisan #PublicVentures #ClimateChange #Infrastructure
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So, @Jordan Peterson, how do we get the ball rolling on this?? Who do you and Gregg and Rick know of that could manage the messaging? Together with Johnson Controls and maybe a little help from Ithaca (connections)?
Why not try to incite a group of individuals that could be the catalysts for the expansion of this solution?!
Not for you to carry this, but quite the oposite; make this great idea take on a life of its own and spread!
@fuddlion Says:
Dr. Peterson, I am an architect and served as a capital improvement program manager for a mid-sized county in Florida until I retired 3 years ago. You guys hit on topics we grappled with constantly. Yes, the shiny new projects are popular with politicians and maintenance isn't. We had serious difficulties getting our government to adequately fund maintenance. But we did, I think, finally hit upon a solution, called life cycle costing. This is a process of estimating the cost of that shiny new project for its entire lifetime. The information generated informs policy-makers with a true picture of the impact of their decisions and serves as a basis for budgeting maintenance on an on-going basis to care for the project properly. Our county actually did fund these maintenance programs in several cases because we were blessed with some very good administrators. The process of life cycle costing has several other positive benefits that are important and I'll try and be brief here. First, the budgeting of ongoing maintenance makes overall costs go down because a properly maintained structure is cheaper to operate over its lifetime. I think that is common sense but I can give many examples but this post is long enough! Second, a project that is analyzed this way also shows decision-makers the true value of building durable projects, which is more expensive initially but pays big benefits in the long run. A quick example is pre-fab office structures. They are quick, cheap and therefore popular. But they are horribly expensive to maintain and usually wind up in a landfill in about 20 years while a durably built structure will last 80 if properly maintained. So, the cheap option is not cheap in the long run. Lastly, and this is a point that is difficult to convey but this process of estimating and budgeting tends to lead to a richer built environment. If you build strongly and durably, you pass on to succeeding generations a built environment that is then built upon and elaborated endlessly and just gets richer and richer. You can find many examples of this in Europe and the Middle East. I know you guys were discussing civil infrastructure and I have branched off into vertical construction but I think my civil engineering friends would agree that many of the same principles apply. Thanks for all you thought-provoking videos. I love them!
@justinelliott3529 Says:
I think the public private partnerships are just about selling infrastructure to private interests for their profit taking.
@svrack Says:
“Oh course we all want to protect the environment “ then how come you haven’t? I wish Peterson would deal with this question. The reason environmentally conscious people are freaking out is because Peterson’s generation hasn’t been protecting the environment or making changes to prevent catastrophe. This should have been addressed in the late 90s, climate change threat was well known in early 2000s. If people in government, the left and the right, had behaved better then we would have more trust in them today
@G33K177 Says:
You really did a 1h30 video on infrastructure without talking about green infrastructure? No trains, bus lanes or bike paths?
@G33K177 Says:
The interstate made america car dependent, now we need more bike paths and public transit.
@craigwilson8255 Says:
I have an idea. Close down city council, so locals can't go and you can get anything passed... oh wait, they did that with surveillance cameras and who the hell knows what else.
@amandacollyer645 Says:
Infrastructure & environment was supposed to be the focus of BBB, but it became a corporate dole out, and got killed in congress. We're in total gridlock with crumbling infrastructure all around us.
@hardlessons9732 Says:
Lack of communication because of greed.
@mannequinskywalker Says:
& of course there's an appearance of clean cities in developed countries... they send all their garbage and recycling to 3rd world countries... or let it float in the ocean
@xr680r Says:
Now that the climate science is showing that the Hunga Tonga Eruption will cool the Earth in the top three events in the last 200 years, being at the same level as krakatoa eruption. Impact: 20 million tons of sulfur dioxide released; with five to ten year drop of 1.2 °C (2.2 °F) This is a climate change event. Only a fool would say otherwise.
@KevinOnEarth_ Says:
I can no longer attend his talk at DAR Constitution Hall in DC bc the mayor mandated the vaccine for all events in DC. I have three row B tickets for sale if anyone is looking for an up close and personal experience with this incredible man.
@maxxbenavente Says:
Trust in the system is what I think the US needs the most, because without trust neither the government nor any private organization would be able to make things possible
@PollyTicks69 Says:
This was a good chat. I'd have liked to have heard more from the left-winger, it seems he didn't speak nearly as much.
@TheDrizzle404 Says:
We need fewer bureaucracies, not more. Scrap the EPA, the "native American" shit, and so on. It's all bloated and corrupt beyond reform, like a tumor. Let the states themselves handle their own bills. We no longer live in an era where the leaders of our country give a shit about the people they claim to represent and care about. They live in comfort, immense luxury, and isolation from Americans behind their own private walls, all at the tax payer's expense. It's not in their interest to help anyone but themselves.
@calebparker8236 Says:
Beards looking good professor P
@OriginalBobJohn Says:
Good talk!
@somebodyontheinternet1090 Says:
We had the death of God. But what about the death of truth 🤔
@dot_dot_pwn2650 Says:
let's say the government bought a square mile of solar panels and in 3 years those solar panels are so outdated and inefficient in comparison. Now we have to upgrade to me this is a waste of time and money. This is why we need to set goals and the goals have to be able to obliterate our current standards or its a waste of money.
@cudalair9023 Says:
I find it interesting how 2 commenters (Dark and Speedskater1947) offer the exact same story 90% word for word.
@jrs777777 Says:
Technology in everyday infrastructure, such as liners in water pipes - Yes! But in the political & economic realms, attention needs to go to jobs & labor realignment considerations along with the excellent potential of such things in society to reduce costs and raise efficiency.
@jrs777777 Says:
Aristotle on "Politics" : in Ancient Greece certainly considered one of the essential & higher endeavors!
@jrs777777 Says:
Engineers are great at estimation in the noble cause of getting things done; us mathematicians, however (myself on a very small level in Education, I'm afraid), discover & teach the theories they use to estimate! (Perhaps it takes both!)
@jrs777777 Says:
Ideology : It would be very nice indeed if politicians did not care who got the credit in order to get things done, as former U.S. President Ronald Reagan said. Another way to put it is akin to "The Ten Commandments" : Politicians and government workers are supposed to be of service to the people in their jurisdiction, not themselves.
@jrs777777 Says:
For innovative features : What is wrong with building a prototype and trying it out initially in a "small" setting such as "Ithaca"?
@jrs777777 Says:
former U.S. President Donald J Trump noted in his book "The Art of the Deal" a situation involving a rennovation / improvement of the bankrupt project going on in Central Park. This excerpt is well worth reading by Dr Peterson, Dr Hurwitz, & Dr Geddes.
@curtisvalle5141 Says:
The only thing we seem to build without massive oversight is tent cities. Also, try running your household on perpetual deferred maintenance. If Americans are so consumed by ideology and so shallow, gullible or lazy to be influenced by bad actors e.g. MSM that they cannot admit they voted for people or party that demonstrably made their lives worse, then we are surely doomed. Stupid is as stupid does.
@johnweibel1128 Says:
And the public believes the Flint Water crisis was due to privatization.... Just saying, people only remember when things go sideways. They have no idea the number of times it got done right.
@johnweibel1128 Says:
Add privatization of prisons isn't very popular either.
@johnweibel1128 Says:
The only public/private partnerships that the general public are aware of are professional sports complexes. Tax money subsidizing millionaires hobbies. It's poisoned the well. Add to that the general vilification of Corporate America makes it a third rail for American politicians.
Add to that the boondoggle like the Wayne County jail project, over budget, never completed, and already planned to be torn down. Or the mistress of the top Wayne County official being awarded a cushy executive position.
There us so much graft and corruption in American politics. All the above, plus politicians family being hired as consultants for the incumbents campaigns.
There are HUGE trust issues all around.
@allenharwood1210 Says:
God's worst mistake was creating us.. The planet would be much more peaceful without mankind.
@robmorgan1214 Says:
This is a great discussion but...it smacks of the neoliberal EHM model described by John Perkins in Confessions of an Economic Hitman, that absolutely wrecked every liberal marginally democratic nation that had the misfortune of adopting its recommendations or ideology...to the extreme benefit of the global financial sector and energy cartels. This isn't doomer cynicism is a matter of historical fact. Keeping this crap at bay during most of the cold war is PRECISELY WHY the US is so dominant, successful, and powerful compared to the other would be super powers... Learn this lesson or become an irrelevant member of the chattering class from an irrelevant corner of our empire.
This neoliberal/neocon crap has roughly the same track record as communism and fascism (which it is)... The only reason we held it at bay for so long it's because we had two formidably powerful presidents: Roosevelt and Eisenhower who populated the executive branch middle management with no nonsense administrators who were aware, skeptical and antagonistic to the spread of this globalist, corporatist creep into the US industrial base. Corruption existed but ...FFS, major defense contractors regularly went BANKRUPT at the height of the cold war...
The only "solution" to the current economic/political instability its COMMUNITY, HONEST, EDUCATION AND COMPETENCE at the individual level combined with ENFORCEMENT of law for the elite and managerial class as well as enhanced psychopath/narcissist detection and elimination from important positions. We can have nice things but not the neo liberal way...snake oil like this is poisoned and will always end up biting you.
What we have is a collapse of social cohesion that provides a novel ecosystem for social predators. The good people are more numerous but they are unable to defend themselves against the predators in their midst. This is why the HR CRT Marxist tail was able to infiltrate and destroy the humanities... They followed the same business model pioneered by the neo liberal EHM's in the econ department in the 70's.
This is what happens in an overly permissive society that tolerates the emergence of an unaccountable untouchable secret government... Corruption thrives in darkness.
@Doug0123 Says:
NY is clean? I disagree. I don't need to go into details on this. Other than that as always Jordan Peterson has a great show.
@pr1me840 Says:
Conversation I want: Derren Brown and Jordan Peterson. Topic: "How everyone has the potential to do evil. Do we learn to love or is it inherent?" (I'll try and post this comment till it happens...;)
@Alexander-qz6px Says:
38:00 These orange sodium lamps are actually very very efficient. "LPS lamps are among the most efficient electrical light sources when measured in photopic lighting conditions, producing above 100 and up to 206 lm/W.[14]" (from.Wikipedia).
@OwlRaiser Says:
53:42
@Alisa198007 Says:
Could you Imagine If the Left was actually pushing infrastructure? The good of all? No instead they push Control...At least I can watch Dr. Peterson's conversations and wish...I seriously believe everything having to do with true infrastructure is all about who is going to get their pockets greased? But we can hope what I believe isn't the truth.
@tomtom21194 Says:
This is something I'm interested in, building up infrastructure to serve the people and the future. Is there anything better than that?
@dharmabeachbum Says:
You wrote books and discussed these issues for decades? Why are we in the situation we’re in? Sounds like another less influential intellectual in our midst…
@hieronymushumble5716 Says:
There's a good reason for distrust of the left.. because of the imbalance of institutional power. The idea that this current legislation is an "infrastructure bill" is laughable. A few hidden provisions include:
1. Requiring every new vehicle to have an alcohol sensor to prevent drunk driving.
2. Govt linked milage tracking, to tax Americans by the mile.
3. Tracking of all crypto transactions, effectively ruining one of its key purposes. This would pave the way for a moral credit system, similar to what happens in China.
Instead of a single 2700 page infrastructure bill, how about breaking them up into line items? Conservatives are tired of seeing the term "infrastructure" used to sap away what remains of our liberty. The reason the term is used, is precisely BECAUSE of the built in consensus around that word.
The single most important legislative change, that would fix all of this and make government accountable to the people again, is to force a full reading of every new bill and a summary created for the citizens to review, to allow a better understanding of what laws are actually being passed.
Why is the infrastructure degraded? Lack of government accountability, with a media helping the citizens decide to continue to fund their own downfall.
@irangles9128 Says:
Infrastructure is important, but sometimes ( or many) are manipulated by corruption. When they plan to do improvements on any city they should be well supervised. Usually I don’t trust the tax increase in some improvements, because they never end. And most of the times the site of improvement is abandoned. Get involved if your local representative think of “improvements” and voted if you really think is necessary.
@gettingtired1066 Says:
Those who may not be in favor of increasing energy efficiency might be those who tend towards liberty and see how making things more efficient can reduce their power over their lives. For example, fire is not a very efficient means of heating a home, but basically anyone can figure out how to install/build a fireplace using YouTube as a guide. Whereas quite a lot fewer people can figure out how to build an electric heater from scratch, if it's even possible at all without the supply chain. Of course time is money as well, and let's be honest not everyone has time enough to build a fireplace from scratch, and most people pay other people to do almost anything for them nowadays, but there is still a group of people out there who see investing in efficiency as a way to disempower the little guy and empower the big guy who can let's say decide to turn off your power if you aren't being a good little boy, and not taking this weeks mandated drug regimen.
I got snarky at the end but food for thought.
@christiansilva6004 Says:
Damn it Greg, stop interrupting the man, I want to hear his ideas.
@firatsanliturk Says:
I think "sexy" is not the main motivation here. "Fun" may be a better one to define what it is. You can see a reflection of that in everything related to infrastructure. Infrastructure-themed fashion shoots are the rare oddity, but almost every kid would have owned a toy cement truck or "man at work lego set" at some point. That's what people might demand from infrastructure. That would be the shortest way to squeeze the message through.
@kevinmorris7722 Says:
It seems obvious that people like them should be at the podiums with explanation of protects, not the politicians who don't understand it as well. That may be an important step. The public brief would be better understood.
@TheBlueFabbit Says:
Well a major part of what affects citizens is the delays in road repairs and maintenance. This is especially true on Rural roads and smaller towns, and one of the major contributors is bureaucracy and red tape where it doesn't 'make sense' to repair the road for the city because it isn't in that bad of shape. They would rather just save the money and keep the road in poor condition and then petition the state for the funds to replace the road entirely.
I think something that could be beneficial is allowing citizens to issues they find problematic, such as filling pot-holes, repaint the lines on roads, or even replace roadways and sidewalks, and be compensated for such labors.
Set up a program where citizens can make such repairs, and deliver a list of materials used to the municipality and be compensated for material costs.
As an example, say I have a 300 ft stretch of two lane road that is in very bad quality, or a particular sidewalk that is uneven and is a tripping hazard, or maybe a drainage system that is clogged with debris that causes intermittent flooding in an area.
Citizens should be allowed to donate their time and labor to do these repairs or contract them out to local businesses, such as having someone put asphalt into pot-holes, remove and replace a sidewalk segment, or clear a storm drain.
We should then be allowed to take the estimates and invoices for the purchases and be at least partially compensated for the materials costs as well as partial compensation for labor. (I.E. if I spend $20 on 5 gallon buckets and a couple pairs of gloves, and take a weekend clearing out a storm drain of debris, then they compensate me for those. Or if I spend $2000 on a ton of asphalt and a contract company to come fill 2-3 pot holes on my street because I nearly lost my car suspension, they should be able to compensate me for that.
As opposed to wait 5-6 years for approval, and then $10k through a city contract and approved laborers to do the same exact thing I could have done.
This would be different of course if it was a New construction that needed approval and permitting and all that, but I am talking general repairs and refurbishment and repaving already existing roads and sidewalks.
@MRProgressor Says:
That smart stoplight stuff was amusing to listen to as a Dutch guy. We had stuff similar to it all around here for decades!
@isabellaliu8409 Says:
Yes it still works but the sufferings ppl have endured perhaps is not like what you see on surface though!
@isabellaliu8409 Says:
Don’t you know the culture is contaminated by the left wings ideology now and these ppl are contaminated by communism? Some younger Americans even denied the history of their country, fix this perhaps is more urgent than the new infrastructures, and of course sound infrastructures are important too but the brain infrastructures are the future!
@isabellaliu8409 Says:
If human beings move to another planet snd settle, there won’t be such a thing for climate change. It’s ironic for some politicians urged ppl to protect environment but he ride on private all round the world for his climate change mission, how ridiculous is that!
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