Watch Jordan Peterson's "Vision & Destiny" on DW+ https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
Peterson draws upon his extensive research and relatable real-life experiences to illustrate how to develop attainable goals for intimate relationships, meaningful friendships, and your career. Transform the chaotic potential of the future into actuality — with a vision.
Dr. Jordan B Peterson and Stephen J Shaw discuss the Birthgap, a term recently coined by Shaw– and the subject of his new documentary by the same name. In this interview, they examine the long building but invisible causes of what may be the most pressing issue facing the western world in the next few decades. Worst case scenario: total societal collapse due to a lack of new children being born, and a rise in senior citizens living longer.
Stephen is a British national who has studied and lived on three continents. He trained as a computer engineer and data scientist before starting his first film project, 'Birthgap,' at age 49. He is president and co-founder of the data analytics company, Autometrics Analytics LLC.
Stephen holds an MBA graduate business degree from ISG in Paris, France, and is continuing his studies at Harvard Extension School.
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
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Watch the Documentary 'Birthgap': https://www.birthgap.org/spaces/9045429/page
Stephen J Shaw on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@birthgap
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- Chapters -
(0:32) Coming up
(1:23) Intro
(2:32) Who is Stephen J Shaw?
(5:11) Noticing the problem
(7:30) Web of small dragons
(9:02) The Birthgap explained
(12:00) Hungary, childlessness
(13:30) Family structure
(16:13) A vast majority want children
(20:07) Involuntary childlessness
(21:00) If emissions are halved tomorrow…
(23:06) Suburban ghost towns
(28:04) A wave of collapses: infrastructure, reality, social security
(30:03) Immigration for population replacement?
(32:36) Culture drain, those left behind
(34:40) Tokyo, 1973 and now
(35:40) Cultural loss of respect for the elderly
(38:51) Making his first documentary film at 49
(41:06) Starting with a question
(42:13) Is the birth control pill a cause?
(44:43) When to pursue family and education
(45:30) The lies we tell young women
(49:00) 1 in 3 by 30 have procreation problems
(50:45) Why you really go to college
(52:40) The fertility window
(55:44) Why aren't people useless all the time?
(57:03) The connection across borders
(1:00:03) Reaching replacement level
(1:01:22) Demoralized to the point of inaction
(1:05:03) The path to childlessness
(1:07:45) Mate selection and hypergamy
(1:10:40) The time to decide
(1:15:00) The 'Population Bomb' was a dud
(1:17:11) We do not live in a petri dish
(1:19:01) From a point of positivity
(1:23:46) The inverted pyramid
(1:26:50) Africa and the cycle of booms
(1:30:29) Hungary, incentivizing reproduction
(1:33:00) The fundamental problem
(1:36:20) Holding motherhood as sacred
(1:38:56) The need for a plan
(1:41:01) Lifelong learning should be a cultural norm
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Nobody can afford it. Rent is way too high. Nobody can afford a home in my generation. So, obviously Nobody is having kids.
@maxsch8454 Says:
I’m proud to be contributing to to the birthrate crisis. Nothing could convince me to have children for the simple fact that I can’t be bothered.
@Skyscraper125 Says:
Something my wife noticed after having our first child is, in her words, "after having a kid, I don't care at all about my career... I just want more kids."
Something I noticed regarding men is, stop being a wimp and whining about things being hard.
It makes me question integration of genders through life... Men among men strive towards excellence and competition. Women among women strive towards community building.
Men & women among the opposite gender strive towards anything they can to get the best woman and man.
Every guy knows the guy I'm talking about... super cool to be around but the moment women are involved - they get weird and act completely different. It puts men and women at competition with their own gender in a way that is self-destructive. People who grew up among a brotherhood or sisterhood that were separated save for occasional formal events are always more well-rounded human beings because the interaction with the opposite gender is rare and sweeter. I only hung out with women during monthly dance classes so they felt like a rare gem to be among.
My thought is we need boys schools and girls schools until college (save for formal events which you could do monthly or quarterly) and we need all of school from a young age to adulthood to be done by age 18, not 22 or 24. That way women will be in touch more with their feminine side and men will be more in touch of their masculine side so by the time you are accredited in any way - you're not some butch "Boss Queen" girl the majority of men don't want because it invalidates their role and you're not some whiney baby bishboy man women don't want because the idea is that behavior is reserved for infants and children. 😆
@tiendang7531 Says:
At this moment the custodian of the patriarchy is dying from self-inflicted painkiller addiction 😂 guess a psychologist with a big ego doesn’t clean his own room like his own daughter 😂
@tbird12yt Says:
Solution:
1. All unmarried couples in a committed relationship should get married.
2. Then, all married women should quit their job.
3. All men should demand a 75% pay raise.
Then, families will have almost the same income they did before, and now women will have time to support their kids, the home, their relatives, their neighbors, and their community like they used to 50 years ago. Consequently, men will also have more time. It won't happen, but wouldn't it be nice?
@walkingwithfranziska Says:
I am 40 and 6 years ago, I realized how messed up I was, I went on a journey (despite always wanting to have kids!) which resulted in a lot of trauma healing, leaving a very toxic relationship and now being at a point where I could say
“Now I am really ready AND save for a child”. The realization came late, maybe too late, but if I got a child 5 years ago with that toxic partner and me having these unhealed trauma, the results would’ve been as sad as were my own.
@Seraphina-mezzo Says:
I strongly feel that we need to create a society that encourages people to have children AND have respect for people who don't wish to have children. I don't accept the "everyone needs to do this" type of argument. Having kids with no money is also harmful advice for all involved.
@TINA-k8f Says:
I decided that I wanted to have children at 18. My mother was a young mother, but my friends parents were older. I noticed that my mom had way more energy and was more 'fun' . The idea of being an old mother really turned me off. I had 3 by 26, and then pursued a career in nursing. I'm 55 and now have 6 grandchildren, and 1 adult child that's 29 without children. My oldest granddaughter is 18, so, more than likely, I will have great grandchildren. I am happy I did this. I divorced and went back to school because my husband refused to do it. I w
@WhitePillRadio Says:
It’s sad our society traded true riches for trinkets. I always wanted to have kids, but couldn’t find anyone who wanted to be a wife.
@JulieGroves-yq1vc Says:
I would be very interested to see the statistics of how many of the mothers are single mothers raising children on their own.
@JulieGroves-yq1vc Says:
Mothers are also the givers of life.
@JulieGroves-yq1vc Says:
I think the devalue of mothers in moden society is also a cause. Mothers should be high value in society they are the ones who build countries and create stability.
@skyandwater100 Says:
I wanted to have 6 kids, but my husband turned out to be a bum, a gigalo, so I had two and that was it. It was hard. Men need to straighten up and do something about their guy friends who are playboys.
@RichterBerg-w8j Says:
Peterson looking down on people who don't want to have children is raw emotion (like seeing a disgusting cockroach) masquerading as a rational position informed by wanting what's best for them.
@JMathinteractive Says:
Men that cross their legs when they talk think it makes them look smarter or something but it’s such a feminine thing to do!! Have some balls and stop crossing your legs bro, otherwise good pod!
@ivanthemisunderstood6940 Says:
It's much more satisfying to watch someone interview Dr. Peterson than it is to watch him constantly interrupt a guest. I guess if I wanted to hear what Shaw has to say this was not the place.
@HarveyAndres-g6j Says:
At 75 and financially secure,AI scares me. Three adult children and five grandchildren AI will reduce possibilities for most of the best careers currently in existence. Musk dances around this idea, which isn't exactly inspiring.
@caveymoley Says:
3 fundamental gratifications;
Children
Intimate partner
Career.
me watching this video with none of the above.
@Yankees103166 Says:
As a mature man who has: (I) undergraduate and law degrees from Yale, and (II) been through the divorce court process, I can say firsthand that any objective, impartial, fair-minded legal observer would fall out of his or her chair observing the anti-male bias / gynocentrism in the divorce court / family law court system. Young men are finally now well aware of this fact — along with the deteriorating mental health statistics among women (see, for example, the shocking 2020 Pew research on female reported mental health illness diagnoses).
No rational young man wants to load three slugs in the chamber of a pistol and play Russian roulette. Not smart. No legal entanglement > no marriage > no babies > rising “unplanned” childlessness.
Let’s talk straight: the feminism of the 1960s / 1970s started the world down a very unfortunate path. The Stalinist North Korean regime will outlast the South Korean democracy without a shot ever being fired.
@geaton777 Says:
Ahh... I've watched Shaw on several other interview podcasts and this is the first time he's mentioned the "A" word... abortion.
@martyc2637 Says:
With AI there will not be a lot of jobs anyway . So shrinking population is a blessing
@AllenPettee Says:
Unfortunately for JP and his interviewee, while they allude to the reason for the worldwide fertility crash (women spending their reproductive years engaging in activities, including education and career preparation), they wimp out and refuse to recommend the only means to counteract it-encourage societies to favor women spend their reproductive years in maternal roles. Instead, they wring their hands and lament the coming extinction of civilization when the cause and its solution is staring them in the face.
@ramper50 Says:
At 35yo I'm planning on going back to school for engineering. The first reason is to try to raise my status financially and socially ie to have a good life and to attract a quality women. The second reason is that I think I have the best chance of finding that women there...
@carollayne87 Says:
The West looks down on other cultures' traditions of arranged marriages. There are now no social structures for young people to meet with a view to forming a partnership. Motherhood and children are way down the list of state priorities. It's all assets and status for the rich. The love of money will be the literal death of society.
@nyk0l3tt3 Says:
I've known since I was 12 years old that I wanted to be a mom. And I've "dated for marriage" since I was allowed to date (in adulthood). Men just don't seem to be willing to commit. They're all scared shitless of losing their pennies in divorce, 🙄
now I'm almost 35, unmarried, no children, and really losing hope. I refuse to have children out of wedlock. I've always maintained my weight and figure, I have no debt, just focused on school, friends, and again, *dating for marriage.* And I've gotten nowhere. Really having to come to terms that I will not be mother to my own children in this lifetime...
@OzarkDairyGal Says:
I was in an abusive relationship for 5 years, at the height of my fertility. I was on birth control that entire time, and it ravaged my body. When I finally met the man that is now my husband all I wanted was our biological children. But at at 34 that window was basically over. At 45 (and him at 47) I am faced with the brutal truth. That ship has sailed. I have so so many regrets.
@vixenwatsonaki1044 Says:
The childless shouldnt need a public pension as they have the potential to save millions on the cost of not having children.
@alexDumont2020 Says:
People expect too much from life nowadays. Women´s hypergamy is not limited to fonancial success but also genetic potential, in other words, they expect the male to make more money than them, be smarter, tall, handsome, etc
@Justblameitonyourcanadian Says:
I am one of the women “letting society down” by not having kids by 32. I’m married, we own a home, & we live below our means. We make enough to hire a nanny if I had a kid - but why?? The research clearly states it’s not good for the child to grow up without a primary caregiver present for those first 3 years. But if I were to quit my job, that’s not just 3 years I’ve lost, that’s an enormous set back that’ll put me behind a decade or so (hence the wage gap).
My husband’s pay is good, but not great. It’s enough to where if I stopped working, we could pay the bills, but life would be a struggle. We don’t live by supportive family, either, & hate the idea that people say “oh just have grandma watch the baby” because that’s just another way society exploits women’s work for free.
I want to scream at Jordan & the guest here - it IS ABOUT ECONOMICS. People used to be able to support a family on one income. Not anymore! Inflation is no joke & I don’t understand how we could continue to put away for retirement (which is expensive - not to mention if you get sick) if we don’t have my income.
This conversation brushes over the primary issue saying we are more “prosperous” than ever in history. Women aren’t being “girl bosses” out here cus they like it - it’s usually because we HAVE TO.
@0me3s Says:
Interesting point, but I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with view kids as annoying. (1:37:28) They are. There is a laundry list of reasons to NEVER have kids. I've never understood the changing in your 30's because it hits you thing. Never happened to me. While I understand why you say certain things, there are some of us that LOATH the idea of having children of our own, but we view our nieces and nephews as the closest thing we will have. The best thing is that we can give them back. As for the being alone part, some of us ADULTS, not mere children have no issues being alone. Being alone doesnt scare me. Not having someone doesn't scare me. Personally, a QUIET world with next to NO CRYING is a dream. i was that child that HATED other kids. Being forced to look after kids as a kid to when you are a teen turns you off to the idea and you HATE the mere mention of someone saying "you'll change your mind" or some variation of that. If you've NEVER been a plane with SCREAMING/CRYING toddlers/baby's, you DON'T get to say anything to me. That's one of MANY reasons I hate that idea. Rant aside, while I respect those of you who wanted to be parents, I would never bring myself to be one.
@Elizabethstokess Says:
As a single childless woman who is 46, I was open to having kids in my 20s but I wanted to make sure it was with a man I felt was psychologically safe to attaché my life to for 18 years to life. And since I have never met a man I trusted to be stable and supportive over the long term, I decided I did not want to be a single mother. And to be honest I am relieved I didn’t have kids because I am a highly sensitive person who gets easily overwhelmed (I have a neurodiversity diagnosis for autism spectrum) and I am not sure I would cope or be a good mother. In which case it’s better off for me to not have kids. Ultimately the decision has always boiled down to “I’m open to it with the right person” but I have not found the right person. Maybe more women would have children if there better caliber and quality men to partner with instead of just ending up being duped into domestic and sexual slavery with a man who is not useful or helpful and assumes his position as the extra child. I am not interested in signing up for a dynamic where the male wants me to step into the roles of being HIS maid, mother, and lover all at the same time while he does nothing and quite possibly messes around with other women while I’m taking care of the kids on my own. I highly recommend promoting that men rise and start to work on themselves to be better partners and parents if you’re wanting women to tie themselves to the men for 18 years to life. Men need to raise the standard of men out there for women because when we ask them to work on themselves, we are nags.
@curiouscorvid3 Says:
"You have to jump into children like you do...life"
Perhaps the higher aversion to risk of women and their dominance of education settings has the downstream effect of preventing the amount of risk taking that a prosperous civilization requires.
@curiouscorvid3 Says:
I think this points to the necessity to return to spiritual life. We don't have to do it like before, but if we're going to continue existing as a specie, it seems we need a framework that starts with the divinity of existence and the sanctity of life as opposed to where we are today: indoctrination or conclusion that life is so unpleasant that the best way to reduce suffering is to discontinue life.
@drewhenderson7604 Says:
I am 48 years old and never been in a relationship
The fact that we see women as the problem tells us why we have the issue to begin with...Its not women who need support , its understanding that men also play a role in parenting
@kwaneleradebe4895 Says:
Finally the value of women is seen in society.. I guess patriachy is dead
@jartotable Says:
Its also being taught at school and in media that its fashionable and ethical not to have children.
@romanyroi1 Says:
I was brought up a toxic environment and never had kids out of fear of becoming an awful mother as i had experienced. I was shamed into not making her a grandmother because that meant she was old. Now I'm 45, and I'm single, and it looks like the rest of my life will be very lonely. It's one of my only regrets. I was taught to work. Worked myself half to death and now can't work... i have pets because they fill the void. They're all spoilt rotten. I would have been the best mum. I learned this too late.
@TINA-k8f Says:
I know people who retire without kids and they are in their 80’s and 90’s . They were home owners and are in serious trouble. They have no children to help them and cannot afford their care. One of my friends developed dementia and didn’t even realize that she need care, nor could anyone convince her. People have rights. Many of these elderly tell me that they didn’t plan to live that long, nor realize how expensive it is to hire help. I know couples who are in their 80’s & 90’s trying to take care of the one who is the sickest. If you need surgery in your 80’s you can’t have surgery when your spouse is in their 90’ w/ Alzheimer’s disease. I highly suggest you do all of your research now. It costs approximately $5,000-$7,500 a month to stay in a nursing home. Medicare pays the first 30 days , for physical rehab. They will send individuals back home alone, with strokes, denting. The more children you have, the better your chances of having at least 1 caring for you. You will need more than 1 person, eventually,if you live long enough.
@TINA-k8f Says:
I married a psychopath and met him when I was 16. I had 3 children, then had the opportunity to leave him, because my boss paid for my schooling. It was very difficult raising my children alone, and it was financially challenging as I was the only financial provider. I let my ex off the hook so that I could move myself and children as far away from his as possible. I suffered a serious injury which was even more of a financial hardship, but having children was the best thing that ever happened to me. The natural instincts of having to care for them was what pushed me far beyond what I ever thought was possible, and I had the joy of living with them and watching them grow. I don’t ever recommend raising children alone, ever, but sometimes you have to. P.s. I wasn’t really a person that liked other people’s children, or enjoy babysitting, but I fell in love with mine.
@angelsvennes6267 Says:
It's not that we didn't want kids, we both did, it just never happened. Now caring for my mother, I wonder who will care for us when we need it. There's no perfect answer, but I'm tired of feeling like I did something wrong because we weren't able to have kids. We talked about adoption but it never really came together for us. However, Mr. Peterson, as you suggest, my husband and I both try to be a "force for good in the world". I spend a good deal of my non-working/non-caregiver hours organizing shooting events for the club, and coaching archery, particularly kids. I know several folks who are single and just can't seem to find a partner they feel confident enough in to share their life with.
@Khaled-em1mp Says:
Conservative loves children unless they are born
@johnmoroney8418 Says:
That’s the last time I listen to a Jordan Peterson interview he’s absolutely infuriating to listen to his constant interruptions
@AzazelKarnKane Says:
500million - 2billion max should be a balance so all life can survive as share this planet will all life and fana and flora on it or a we that agorannt so think this was all created for us . Then look through the animals eyes for once and wouldn't think that we are there nightmare and we are there hell and we are the monsters that there children scream and cry about. Then ask yourself do really want to be a monster or do you want to change and become a compassionate loving human being that will change and protect and nurture and love this poor animals that has suffered enough.
@tatianapeet5989 Says:
Many traditional cultures had salient and rich images and myths of motherhood. Our culture is almost completely devoid of inspiring images and stories of motherhood. Motherhood takes great sacrifice. Intelligent, ambitious, creative women need to feel they are doing something valuable, difficult, beautiful, and meaningful in order to choose this path. You are not going to get ordinary women to agree to a life of sacrifice and loss of social value without meaningful cultural narratives.
@BadenLaura Says:
I'm 54 and didn't have children because i didn't think i wanted them. Now i just wish I had more friends who had kids so i could babysit for free and get to be part of their lives even if it's just a tiny bit.
@lefrise5 Says:
There are lots of factors not being talked about here :
1) Cost of living increase
2) People are way more diverse and eclectic now which is good but reduces the chances of finding partner that aligns with you
3) More people want to pursue creative careers while there are actually less creative careers available -> which leads to people having shit jobs and spend their free time being creative -> not ideal to raise a child
4) People have more mental illnesses than before (okay that has been mentioned a bit)
@21stMaIngalls Says:
Western culture convinces young people that having children is just expensive and hard and limiting. There is very little in our culture encouraging young people to see all the positives. I’m so grateful that I attended college in the South where I did because the culture there was that marriage and family were the ultimate goal - just as important as career. I found my husband in our early 20s, who was on the fence about marriage and kids, and pulled him along the path. Now, 10 years later, we’re married with 3 little boys and more to come. Being a parent is the greatest joy of his life, after marriage. We discuss often the birth rate decline and population decline. I look at it from the perspective of someone who always knew I wanted to be a wife and mother and SAHM. He looks at it from the perspective of someone who could have gone either way depending on the influences around him. He is a loud proponent of marriage and kids (multiple) and feels it’s his responsibility, as someone who was saved by someone else, to direct other young men on the right path 💕
@timelessv5z Says:
Not getting the motherhood you wanted or needed. I can't imagine.
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