Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Zach Lahn discuss the Wonder School, a Socratic-based education system in Wichita, Kansas. They delve into the value of learner-driven education, the origins of the American school system as a means to create obedient factory workers, and the true role of schools in shaping a child's character. They also walk through a day in the life of a Wonder Leaner, the curriculum designed to help inspire these students toward their true calling, and exactly why this unconventional approach might be well worth your consideration as a parent.
Zach Lahn is the co-founder of Wonder, a learner-driven school in Wichita, Kansas, with the mission of helping young people find their calling and preparing them to change the world. His background in business has been as a founder of a search fund focused on acquiring and building small to medium companies. Prior to founding Wonder, Zach managed U.S. Congressional and Senatorial campaigns and raised funds for startup companies and nonprofit organizations. He now spends nearly all of his time at school with his six kids and with his wife, building a regenerative farm on his family's ancestral homestead in Iowa.
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
Ep.370
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- Links -
For Zach Lahn:
Twitter @ZachLahn https://twitter.com/ZachLahn
The Wonder School www.daringtowonder.com/
- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:27) Intro
(1:15) The need for a new model
(5:46) What is most important for children to learn?
(6:57) Agency over skillset
(9:45) Self Authoring
(12:43) Origin of the American education system
(15:44) competing systems
(17:36) The Wonder schedule
(21:28) Kids live in a meta narrative
(22:23) The education of character
(23:47) Akira the Don, active learning
(27:36) Mixed age classes
(30:20) Inspiring development and leadership
(31:31) Necessary freedom
(33:07) Socratic discussion, mentors
(37:05) Khan Academy
(39:20) Goals for kindergarten
(40:04) Compared to public school
(41:51) Tuition
(43:20) The problem with measurement
(44:30) Self tracking and public peer review
(50:00) Two behaviors that cannot work in school
(51:26) If not rectified by the age of 4�
(52:49) Gamified learning
(54:03) Freedom hours
(56:49) Are Wonder graduates prepared?
(58:14) How conflicts are handled
(1:01:13) All learning is self-learning
(1:04:25) When initiative is scorned
(1:07:54) How to determine what learners read
(1:09:18) Why self help books are so useful
(1:10:34) Why children don't like reading
(1:12:17) Book review review
(1:15:09) Badge plan
(1:19:10) Aims of each age group
(1:22:18) The power in apprenticeships
(1:28:50) Approach to high school, the 'next great adventure'
(1:32:05) Success of the model
(1:34:03) Be ready for a journey
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I work in a school in a depressed rural area with a HUGE welfare population and 28% of the students have an IEP. I homeschooled my kids and have been working as a paraprofessional. Currently getting my teaching license at the ripe age of 58. I refuse to teach the way the current model demands. I wonder how to implement some of this with all the behavior/educational problems in my school. I will definitely do my best to give my students a shot at a better education, but I will be swimming upstream.
@ElenaLearningForeverToInfinity Says:
much prefer the Michaela school.
@durrysdingdong Says:
Ken Kesey wrote the topic of this podcast into his book "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest." When I read it I had the imagery of mince meat being pumped out through the school grinder...like in Pink Floyd's The Wall video
@libertyloveslife5602 Says:
I sucked at school graduated as a dumb sorority girl got my crap together in 5 months, worked my butt of doing no respect low wage jobs to get into an internship. Got in while worked at a waitress at night and school and work during the day no sleep no life. 2 years later I reached my dream as a dietitian and never looked back. Doesn’t matter where u start it’s where u end up.
@yeetmaster6924 Says:
Jordan B Peterson IS THE GOATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@epone3488 Says:
I learnt to read Danish as an exchange student from reading Superman comics which were a) easily accessible and b) introduced and flexed my word vocabulary I was 17 at the time. Why cant this be great for smaller kids? "This is the way".
I have an interesting story regarding my education. Im dyslexic (plain dominance) Im ambidextrous, my writing is unique (forced to write right-handed) some would say "messy" Id say "graphic" I was lost in the education system didnt know it was even really happening; I ghosted through my days just doing the things I was pointed at from age 6-8. At age 9 I discovered a box of Dungeons and Dragons and the cover illustration captivated me. My mum refused to buy it, So I had to lay-by it.
To do that I had to get odd jobs to pay it off. I found I liked the work and was motivated to do it to get the "game". Only when I got the "game" it wasn't one in the normal sense. Mo board no turn structure really in a conventional sense. So I was after all that hard work determined to "learn to play" this new thing - I dont know why my disappointment didnt win out - Maybe I fell to the "opportunity loss" fallacy at age 9? No mater I sort and found a teen who had played and they taught me. Well from that introduction and the content of the game - Which I had to learn about, it being couched in a medievalist-framework sent me to the library (my favorite word).
In turn I went from an aimless student to a full participant in my education; voraciously sucking in every scrap of knowledge. Coming to the conclusion at age 10, from what I saw in the library "People through history have all had the same questions that I have! Some people put those questions and their ideas about answers, into books to help everyone" This was like a special "Key" and It lit a fire in me. I had to now these questions and answers and I wanted to get others involved too. So even though my contact taught me how to play he was too old to want to have me in his game or run a game for us. So that meant I wanted to start my own gaming group. In turn I had to rope in friends and see if they wanted to try it and go on playing which opened up social learning, team management, conflict resolution, goal setting, public speaking, research, especially research; the list goes on. I found my holy grail.
Im so thankful for this 50 years latter, two degrees, a successful career and family later that I hardly know what to do with my self. I hope for everyone that they find the joys of education not the formal big E education but the small "e" education that is personal, self directed and very meaningful.
@spiderswave Says:
To School : teach me how to learn the topic not what to remember ,
teach me the process not the destination.... ---as a student i want
@sadee1245 Says:
when i was a school kid, i was always against the system and questioned everything, i asked why I need to study this unnecessary subjects, what good will it bring me. i was always against this school-college-job trap. but my parents just forced me to kill my creativity and fall into this trap. but i don't blame my parents because they just wanted the best for me they believed.
now i realize that the grading system is just a representation of how obedient you were. so when hiring, an employer basically forecasts how obedient you will be to them.
I used to be recognized for my creativity and out of the box thinking and now as university student all i think about getting superior jobs.
I just hope i can save my kids from this trap
@RITESH-e3 Says:
You are great sir ❤
@Bhairavashakti Says:
Those are not anti social proclaimities they are just the perversion of vrittis of energy system within human system
@Delta19G Says:
Mr Peterson is a powerful thinker that must be stopped. Unless we mobilize our forces against the evil system bent to control us. The facts falls on deaf ears
@josefranciscodasilvaeolive674 Says:
Stop asking those outside the school system to comment on it.
Talk to the TEACHERS.
The ideas being promoted by this individual are extremely emotionally satisfying but lack substance.
I hate to break to it everyone but I will be the bearer of REALITY: Academic work requires calm and still. Yes, you MUST be sitting and thinking. That is just how it is.
Example: You will never be able to comprehend complex mathematics by running around or being surrounded by noise and distractions.
If you struggled with school, look to your parents for blame. They failed you, not the schools. Grow up and take personal responsibility for your life.
@Paulbuzhduga Says:
Thank you so much for this. I have 4 kids and my oldest 4 is going to school next year. We definitely didn’t want him to go to a public school. But weren’t sure where to enroll him. This has been very helpful. Thank you again!!!
@katynyambi Says:
Is this education available online? Asking from South Africa.
@StephenKing-wb2ve Says:
My problem with Socratic school is, children have this instinct to avoid of confronting difficulties or long-term gratifications. Of course you can make them feel like some kind of heroes with challenges in front of them. Most kids would simply run away and refuse engaging with that. Now, if the adult who played the traditional role of teacher insists the child to face the challenge, what's the difference with current education system that is based on top-down leadership?
@dikhed1639 Says:
Of course, you are famikliar with John Taylor Gatto
@hwb-zalpach Says:
i had just 3 years school, i defeated the system.
@NotNowCato1254 Says:
I feel that what Zach and others are spear-heading is crucial to repairing the ills of western society. Developing our children thus will eventually dispense with the need for shining lights like JBP to need to help fix lost adults - surely a much more difficult task? And that can only apply to those who appreciate their predicament and CHOOSE to seek such counsel. I truly believe this. Bravo Zach and thanks again Dr P.
@Virgophrenia Says:
I had a public school teacher get really upset telling me that my sons score on his test did not yruly reflect how smart my son actually was. She talked about how schools expect all kids to work at the same pace...and my son didn't work like that. She didn't want him to feel he wasn't good enough because of some #'s. I loved her..she always spoke up for the students.
@falcon_gamer_2013 Says:
I think an important key point to debunk is the following straw-man question: How is this useful in my life? That's called non-epistemic pragmatism, by John Dewey. It's always used by mass-students to 'justify' their lack of work. The problem is that the question per se is contradictory. I could say as follows to respond: "How is useful to have thoughts about something that I don't know that'll serve in my life, in my life?"It's a rhetoric trick mainly used by mass-students that we need to learn to debunk. Furthermore, if it's not useful... Why do I have reflections about it? The Being exists for a purpose, in contrast to the Not-Being. Furthermore, we could consider Dewey as someone which indirectly supports 'postmodernism', due to the fact that even Rorty supported his point of view. And the worst fact is that some 'conservatives' around me, sustain that thesis without knowing that they hold something that goes against their ideas. Sapere aude!
@kristintempleton9677 Says:
your tuition is the same as what i pay for my 3 yr olds daycare. please expand into early learning care, please come to pennsylvania.
@aaad3552 Says:
570k view for 7 million sub? Wtf
@octoberrast4953 Says:
Wonder School sounds like a Freirean educational model. So sad that this guy has fallen into this trap thinking the only valid opposition to the Prussian model must be a Freirean model.
@log9527 Says:
9:47
@lynnewilson7226 Says:
I love this! I would love this to be in my area. I teach in a local school now. I've been so disappointed with what I see. I homeschooled for 14 years and lived it. We operated much like you! I just can't find anything similar in my area now that homeschool is completed. Thank you for sharing!
@rebn8346 Says:
Maria Montessori
@geofreycrow9663 Says:
Listening to this at my factory job 🙃
@jonlannister345 Says:
I wander what my parents would tell to someone asking what they wanted for me. To me they always told me I'd never amount to anything and would die alone and in poverty. Probably had the awareness not to repeat that to people.
@Mungeren Says:
“Purpose of education is to learn how to use your brain. It’s essential for development” - Albert Einstein
@serenawood6991 Says:
I just wanted to mention that in Florida our Governor made the School Choice scholarship available to families to everyone (not based on income anymore) Everyone here has access the thw Acton Academy school that my child is now going to. Our family would not have been able to afford the tuition without that scholarship. We are so blessed!!
@christophedejonge918 Says:
My oldest 2 go to a (one of a kind) "sociocratic" school, similar to the few Dutch Democratic schools. made possible by pioneering by the Dutch "Iederwijs" school. All inspired by such US schools as Sudbury Valley School.
@chrislavalley Says:
When I went to school starting in the 50s, we learned how to learn. When my children went to school the theme was work as a team. One student did most of the work and the rest benefited from his or her efforts. Many couldn't read very well; many couldn't do math without a cellphone. I agree that that whole generation was dumbed down, brainwashed and weaponized in this culture war that we're having!
@dsurfer Says:
I am jealous of the opportunities in education these kids are getting and angry at what I was dropped into as a kid.
@fzrniko Says:
As in everything, there are positives and negatives, and there are positives and negatives to project based learning experiences. My students went to a “crappy, industry” school and they are all college educated professionals living their dreams. They are happy and participating and have skills that support any mobility they please. There are schools already that also embrace this guys vision as education. It is not revolutionary. I just came from one. It is a decent school that should prepare their students for adult hood. But it ain’t for everybody. There is value in production and foundation building. And given expanding opportunities, they can be positive. As in the cases of my 5 children. All of whom have gone on to get public school university professional degrees and are doing well. Personally I value traditional, k12 vigorous well rounded education, to self directed, project based teaching. And with guidance from home as well to discuss the days learning in application and concept, it could be a powerful combination as it was in my family’s case and experience.
@SurzhenkoAndrii Says:
Lol, public school system in most countries use 100-years old design to produce workers. And only now you realize this.
@NobodyAsked-xh8cs Says:
The current education system doesn't care about education, it only cares about attention. Nothing grabs a father figureless person's attention more than politics.
@peterfryer9615 Says:
I grew up in the 1960.s in Manchester UK.Manchester was still very industrial with huge factories in and around Manchester. The sole purpose of schools in the area was to provide factory fodder,I did not pass the 11 plus exam I was not taught the importance of that exam and consequently ended up in a secondary modern school and pushed towards an apprenticeship in Trafford park,home of the Trafford centre.just an opinion but I think very little has changed, we have just swapped industries for commerce shop workers for factory workers.
@joshuabates4759 Says:
Add reads can be annoying, but understandable. With your personality and story telling, it would be great if you could do an add read on your own terms and own script, not a product standard script you'll hear verbatim from dozens of creators.
Maybe do the shameless merch plugs, and delve into affiliate link plugs for different products?
Love your content either way!
@SouthernOR Says:
Hey, I am on the right track - as a teacher, my main goals for the kids I work with are to help them learn about themselves, be confident in themselves, learn to work well with others and learn to love learning as well as having them wanting to come to school. Strong academics can come later in my book, when they actually can understand it better. However, it’s a struggle to help families understand that their 4 year old should not be “forced” to learn how to read or “forced” to do mathematical equations.
@Karmicpeace Says:
Come visit Prairie School of DuPage in Illinois!
@johnsmith1882-x2i Says:
His school sounds like a tweaked and rebranded montessori.
@crabmannyjoe2 Says:
I heavily relied on Khan academy videos for biology and calculus in highschool. They were far better than the instruction I got in class.
@MrMoonFlame Says:
Watching this triggered a recollection of a seminar I saw maybe 20 years ago at the University of Central Florida from computer programmer who worked for one of the big companies (EA maybe) who made video games for play station. I was stunned to learn that they had created their own middle and high schools to educate future computer programmers and game creators because the standard public schools were not producing enough high school graduates with the self directed agency and competency to meet their projected business growth models. Now it all makes sense. Great interview!
@deborahmyers5205 Says:
This school sounds very much like a 'Free School ' program I participated in while in 5-7th grades in the 70's. I went to my usual gradeschool except for Wednesdays. There were kids from all over Chicago and Facilitators, but we were left to study whatever we wanted and if we needed help, there were older kids or a Teacher to help. In 5th or 6th grade, my regular school teacher called my mother to say that he didn't think I should be reading 'Great Expectations '. She told him that if the book was Beyond my grasp, I would be BORED and quit reading.
@mikeferris408 Says:
And why does it take 12 years to learn yr abc's basic math n some u.s. history that 99.9% of kids have absolutely no interest in leanring ? Education in this world is done in the worst of ways. The vast most of the education in America is a WASTE OF TIME! Its a place mass childern can all be so mom n dad can joint the tax gang so the government has money to keep power as every other governments do. Its a worldwide system.
@mikeferris408 Says:
How could that be? All the illegals i mean all the migrants will take i mean fill all them factory jobs now.. whats left...isnt there enough factories (american) where they came from?
@deborahmyers5205 Says:
Awesome discussion. Thanks, Gentlemen . Brought to mind a scene from the movie, 'Uncle Buck' wherein John Candy met with the Elementary school Principal about his 6yo niece. 😂 and True
@emileeleewolfe4192 Says:
This is fantastic!!! Thank you!! I hope this model of education spreads like wildfire.
@babauaski3928 Says:
You guys are 40years late. We've been doing everything you're talking about here for decades and the level completly collapsed. And those who suffer most from it of course are the middle and lower classes - back in the days they were 30% of our elite universities, today they are 3%.
Here are sure and simple ways to improve school before even trying to revolutionnize it:
Having competent teachers payed to their level of qualification - that can be fired and that can punish students and get them on disciplinary councils to get them expelled if they go too far.
Having fewer kids per classes.
Having classes by level.
@Artur_Papryka Says:
This conversation reassured me that Dr. Peterson has some kind of complex. Don’t wanna go to far with this, so I won’t say more, but half of the time he sounded like he was controlling his supposedly superior assumptions.
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