This episode was recorded on September 6, 2021.
Dr. Christopher Kaczor, Dr. Matthew Petrusek, and I discuss their new book 'Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity'—the first systematic analysis of 12 Rules for Life and my biblical series from a Christian perspective. We also cover—just to name a few—truth in fiction, time before consciousness, faith, evolution, love, and acting as if God exists.
Dr. Christopher Kaczor is a Professor of Philosophy at Loyola Marymount University. He was appointed a Corresponding Member of the Pontifical Academy for Life of Vatican City, is a fellow of the Word on Fire Institute, and won a Templeton Grant for his work. He has written many scholarly articles and books.
Dr. Matthew R. Petrusek is an associate professor at Loyola Marymount University in LA. He holds an MA from Yale and a PhD from the University of Chicago. Dr. Petrusek specializes in Christian ethics and moral theology and lectures on a range of topics surrounding philosophy, theology, and Catholicism.
Find more Dr. Christopher Kaczor on Twitter @Prof_Kaczor:
https://twitter.com/prof_kaczor
And more Dr. Matthew Petrusek @MattPetrusek:
https://twitter.com/MattPetrusek
Get their book at
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095J3SB9M/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0
[00:00] Intro
[02:26] The motivation behind "Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity"
[09:34] Genesis, the literal sense in scripture and the truth in fiction
[10:21] "The Atheist types miss that fiction isn't false" Jordan Peterson
[11:45] "A story that can change your life has a power that is best described as religious" JP
[12:23] Truth in fiction and religious text
[14:00] "I think truth is broader [than the empirically verifiable]"
[18:44] The problem with the empirical approach and replacing God
[22:07] "[When] Ceasar becomes inflated to God, all hell breaks loose" JP
[22:35] "If we don't segregate off the religious instinct and give it its proper attention, [everything] starts becoming inappropriately contaminated with religious longing. That's why you see [division and] the rise in powerful political ideologies" JP
[23:32] On the perversion of the religious instinct
[25:41] The Bible's warning in Noah and the tower of Babel
[30:43] Time before consciousness
[36:43] "Matter at the quantum level makes it difficult to think of a universe without conscious observers" JP
[40:45] Are science and religion at odds?
[44:00] Dr. Petrusek on science/religion
[46:31] On Faith
[54:52] Imitating the spirit of the Father
[54:56] "You can conceptualize Christ as the representation of all things admirable." JP
[57:53] "Faith is the willingness to act that out in the world" JP
[01:00:27] Why we must strive to be good
[01:01:12] "I am loved and I wish to love, and I recognize that I will fail time and time again" Matthew Petrusek
[01:05:26] Evolution and religion
[01:11:09] The creation of the universe
[01:11:36] The church and Dr. Peterson's popularity
[01:15:41] "Faith cannot oppose reason" MP
[01:16:48] The challenge of drawing younger people to church
[01:33:31] Acting as if God exists
[01:36:37] "Your life isn't about you and your own thoughts" MP
[01:39:46] "When people fall in love with one another, they see the perfection that could conceivably exist. It's like the curtains of illusion pull apart momentarily, and you see the paradisal state that could be there" JP
[01:40:10] God's love and the love between a parent and a child
[01:43:07] How to treat those we love
[01:43:29] "The more love you view other people with, the higher the moral demand that's placed on you" JP
[01:44:25] 'I think there's too much moral authority in the church" JP
[01:44:39] The ten commandments; the moral load of sin
[01:49:25] Understanding hell
[01:55:22] More on Word on Fire
[01:58:04] The Exodus lectures
#Christianity #Evolution #Meaning #God #Faith
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Obviously these guys have no idea what they're talking about that's what happens when Obviously these guys have no idea what they're talking about that's what happens when you misinterpret the bible And read it for your own selfish personal Spiritual reasons. The reason you can't figure out that genesis is connected intricately with science is because You choose that. In the deeper Aspects of Judaism Aspects of Judaism have Aspects of Judaism have corresponds to all science And the ways of creation These guys are just bumbling idiots
@stonepaintertim Says:
Jordan Peterson genius explanation about truth, experience and fact of what happens is the pearl of wisdom needed when looking at scripture ( around 13”
@TrevorDTucker Says:
Wow, this is an amazing dialogue. Peterson, you've again given me a lot to think about.
@keenanrice2612 Says:
One thing is often confused. Catholic, and Christian are not the same thing. Christians follow Christs example, and learn how to better do that with the Bible. Catholics do what the Pope says. It is that simple and a common misunderstanding. Catholics and Christians are not interchangeable terms.
@GoA7250 Says:
Jesus is not God.
@BotHunterCZE Says:
1:16:13 "Faith and reason are two wings that the human person uses to fly up towards The Truth" - Jan Pavel 2.
@amoh5 Says:
I think deep down we all know we are family soldiers of life, we love our parents, our siblings, our children, but today’s world teaches a lot of anti-family ideas of hedonism and self-gratification that corrupts our family moral compasses.
I’d rather die as a family soldier, than die as a hedonistic anti-family soldier.
God is all about truth, family morality and wellness.
Lord Jesus Christ is the spirit of family and God ❤ ✝️
@ronniescott7834 Says:
And something that I believe because you are scientist or literate that you put too much emphasis on science, as being the determinator of truth when science has been wrong at least as many times as it’s been right, the only true truth is God you can span out from there, but you have to start at that foundation and that foundation is God🙏🏻❤️🇺🇸💪
@jackiekunovska8405 Says:
I agree...what is the point of there being a universe if there is no observer to appreciate its being there
@flymoolahman2763 Says:
when Christ says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." you either trust his word or you don't trust his word, there isn't an in between. There is no partiality in that statement, it's all or nothing, but you can get to nothing traversing millions of paths.
@RuthCooper-l6j Says:
Yes, your lectures point eloquently that our very capacity for speech, logos, language, and awareness of it , is connecting with us
@RuthCooper-l6j Says:
You Dr. Peterson are working so hard for freedom of speech. This to me sounds like Jesus is been locked down in the murky waters of the internet and the world for ages and you are his last instrument for Him to save his last sheep
@Pritchie45 Says:
42:28 Windows PC Shutdown Tune
@ynzmadeleine Says:
36:28... that's why I love Jordan Peterson...
@noellecuisine8912 Says:
What a beautiful conversation ❤
@amoh5 Says:
Religion is the doctrine of one's moral compass and ethics regardless whether one believes in God or not.
As a Christian, I do see how Dawkins or scientific psychologists like Peterson get annoyed with these evangelical-like Christians because they keep insisting on this theological magical thinking about God instead of realistic practical thinking. They seem to be on an unrealistic theological high similar to drug addicts not interested in the real practical world.
For me as a moralist Christian, I think Lord Jesus Christ is the greatest humanitarian moralist teacher of God that will ever be, but I wouldn't want to present him in a mystical magical way to other people. I'd rather present Lord Jesus Christ in a more realistic and practical way that people can relate to.
I also think that the literature in the gospels of Lord Jesus desperately needs updating to a more modern realistic type of literature rather than the mystical magical style that it currently has.
Jordan Peterson is giving people a more realistic interpretation of biblical scripture without the mystical magical connotations.
God isn't a physical entity. Lord Jesus says in his gospels that God is spirit and truth John 4:24 Therefore, most Christians believe that Lord Jesus is also the spirit of God who teaches us to respect ourselves and other people.
The spirit is emotion, emotional and spiritual are the same thing.
We think with 2 minds, the physical mind that rationalizes physical matter, and our emotional/spiritual minds that rationalizes emotional moral matters.
The only magical effect from Christianity is all about getting along with yourself and other people which can be very difficult in the real world with all its challenges and chaos.
I think for anyone wanting to be a Christian you have to first be a family orientated person who loves their family and friends also, otherwise it will seem like an alien concept.
Strive to be well and happy, God bless everyone ❤ ✝️
@P.H.888 Says:
Our FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN
✝️🩸🕊️
The Gospel 600BC
Jeremiah 31 v 31 ~ 34.
Acts 2 v 1-4.
Revelation 3 v 20
Isaiah 49 v 6
You are loved, forgiven, blessed
🙏🏻🙏🏽🙏🏿🕊️
@thetruthexperiment Says:
YOU JUST SAID PATTERN. A patter is something perceived. If you can’t wrap your head around consciousness being fundamental to things existing then you probably won’t because you cant think big enough. It’s not worth arguing with people. You either need to be smart or take time to ponder it which wont happen in this interview. These dudes are not that bright.
@Svoboda1234 Says:
1:28:12 I think they’re trying to tell you you’ll become a saint if you become Catholic. Bringing millions to the church, I’d imagine it would happen
@wadeedge4719 Says:
42:31 so the thesis then is that it is only the consciousness of a continuous and eternal god, a creator, to make creation, reality, exist. Absent any other observational consciousness, existence is moot. But because there is a consciousness, god; then the observer remains and that is why there is a past and future, whether we or penguins or amoebas exist to observe it in our terms. Ok, fine. But that doesn’t explain unwarranted suffering as having enough value as to allow to exist, much less through creation. I’ve yet to see any entity, from the meth addled street preacher to the illustrious and magnificent people as on this panel, not only sufficiently but even directly deign to attempt to explain and make whole the concept of unwarranted suffering. Whether the amoeba or the six year old with brain cancer or the murder victim, the holocaust victim, et al infinitum, there is no suitable rationale for unwarranted suffering. Every single speaker will immediately latch on to free will as an answer to this central question. And that fails instantly and always, because it’s not even the question being asked, no one blames Ted bundy for cholera. As bad as it is to make the argument that one person’s right to free will trumps an innocent’s right to not be impinged upon (and horrifically), the question remains how is it that unwarranted suffering, suffering of the innocent, has any value? How does that reality warrant allegiance to a creator?
@somebody7070 Says:
The problem with Creationists is that if the Bible is not empirical truth, and therefore is " profound truth" then call it for what it is , Philosophy. Moreover , we can NOT say it is " the rules for life for every human because its true" PRECISELY because it is not empirical truth.
This is exactly the problem with non empirical " truths" , they are beliefs, NOT TRUTHS because it can NOT be observed, analyzed, measured, re created.
I love Dr Peterson but I will die a Dawkinsonian.
@hettamoolman4368 Says:
As a believer in the Word/ Scripture/the Bible /God as Creator/ Christ as the resurrected Son of God/our Redeemer /the Logos - I believe that our bodies die ( eg in the case of a plague that wipes out all human life ) our souls and spirits live on and believers will be with YHVH in heaven....so we live on and therefor as perceivers of reality / wharever that reality might be. So with GOD and angels and we as trancendent beings /spirits/souls ( after we died ) will always be perceivers of reality / heaven and universe etc
@gilcostello3316 Says:
One problem atheists have is a refusal to be open to an experience of what Catholic mystics call "infused states", something not attained to, but “poured into” one’s being. For example, when I was doing radical Kundalini yoga, I arrived at (attained to) the highest possible state of awareness that can be arrived at by any human being, for it is an ABSENCE of everything we perceive of through sensual and cognitive perception, what the mind can formulate with thoughts, for there is no thought, it being the absence of thought.
In this attained-to state, there is no light, no dark, no grey, no sensual experience whatsoever, and especially no thought. And I would argue this state is actually the “nothingness” Heidegger references but never actually explains because it is beyond what thought can reveal, for it is the absence of thought, yet one can still be aware one exists, for one will have arrived at an awareness of the non-substance substance God created us from. And what I just wrote does not in any way convey what that experience is, because it is void of thought n he realm of Nothingness.
And the Catholic mystic does not ATTAIN to what is called an “infused state”, for it arrives in its first stage only by a radical letting-go of all attaining-to that Kundalini practitioners use, a letting-go that only God can provide, as it is unattainable by human effort, and once in that total letting-go state, God then pours his transcendent graces into one’s soul, and all of this occurs inside God’s Great Darkness that does not exist in the soul or mind, what God also draws us into only from that letting-go state, a Darkness that is His alone, meaning the experience is void of anything we can even imagine, even when using every human faculty of senses and cognition, even absent the Nothingness that is the absolute height of awareness that we CAN arrive at through Kundalini, the Nothingness Heidegger tries to explain but can’t, because it is beyond what we can think, an absence of thought, and therefore can’t even be imagined, for the imagination employs thought in what it produces, still a strictly psychological human attainment through cognition and the senses.
This “infused state” Catholic mystics have reported can only take place in God’s Great Darkness (a Darkness that is not human darkness), what is something only God can provide as a preparation to receive his infused graces—an absolute requirement, in fact. Only in that state will God pour his good graces into and fill one’s soul. And although it is impossible to explain this infused state (what no pharmacological substance can provide, not even hallucinogenic mushrooms), a RESIDUAL state/experience after exiting the realm of God’s Darkness can be had.
This is why I won’t bother trying to explain God’s Darkness because it is inexplicable, beyond explanation for it is something language cannot convey and is no part of strictly human-attained-to experience, but I can speak to its residual effect after leaving God’s Darkness where the infused state arrives from God. And that residual effect was for a week and a half experiencing light emanating from every molecule around and from inside me, even from the humanly perceived dark corners of crevices that separate, say, a refrigerator from a counter; and every molecule of everything around and from inside me was also absolutely beautiful, no ugliness anywhere. Yes, this residual state was a psychological state, the same as what we can get in degrees from hallucinogens or the Kundalini experience, not in any way an infused state, for the infused state takes place only inside God’s Darkness that does not even permit the Heideggerian Nothingness to impede its arrival.
In other words, there is simply no way to enter God’s Darkness if one refuses to let go and allow it to consume one’s senses and cognition.
@miklosfabian4722 Says:
Peterson has become a true wise man
@mariogomezcortez9901 Says:
Oh no the term politics just got involved. Im nkt sure where that is being taken
@SpryteintheAndes Says:
"Faith and reason are 2 wings that the human uses to fly up to the truth." John Paul II
Love this quote!
They shouldn't be in competition with each other and yet for most of us we have learned they should be or just ARE in the world.
@SpryteintheAndes Says:
Brilliant description between living faith and dead faith ! This is such a key component often missing from christians and the church. I love the explanation of why then would we bother to be good. Truth is when you've got GOD you WANT to be good. You WANT to be closer and closer in relationship wirh Him because you've never felt or known more joy and peace and goodness that can't come from the world.
@lakersrdbest Says:
Thank you Mr. Peterson for these well articulated videos!😊
@Dustysoapbox Says:
Thank you gentlemen for your willingness to participate in hope.
@shanemason4815 Says:
The last 30 minutes of this was deeply moving.
@chrishanson1631 Says:
The funny thing about time and a 14 billion year old universe, what all models fail to factor in is the fabric of space and time was being formed along with the creation of the universe.
@martiakatz8442 Says:
The reason that people are more attracted to JBP's lectures online and not to the Catholic church is not that difficult to figure out even for a layman. After the online lecture no one is going to sexually abuse your children and then be moved to a new parish by the powers that be when his crimes are revealed.
@triciajacobs5711 Says:
This was absolutely one of the best things I have listened to in months. Thank you so much, you are helping us all stay focused on God's grace and mercy. Praying for you all!
@brendaphillips7560 Says:
Excuse me, also try Fr. Chad Ripperger
@brendaphillips7560 Says:
I also have had my Catholic life blossom starting with Jordan Peterson’s biblical series, which also led me to his reading list and a massive reading binge. Also, try Fr. Chad Reddinger
@mariamichael1669 Says:
I believe the reason why so many young people and more so more young men coming to your biblical talks and not attending churches is be because you have managed to “repackage” faith/religion to a more “acceptable “ ideology for today’s modern world. Also, there is a void in many people’s life’s today especially young people, and again perhaps young men as they’ve been really mis-sold down the river and you Dr Paterson are filling that void. Thank you for using your platform for the greater good. 🙏🙏🙏
@larryjenson4328 Says:
As J.R.R. Tolkien once said, the story of Jesus Christ is a u-catastrophe much like existence itself!!!
A beautiful devastation🙏
@devenwagers9679 Says:
Jordan Peterson Tom holland podcast please!
@marcianneaikau8776 Says:
🎚🗝📐🔗🔎🔍❤️🔥
@timothyproffit2026 Says:
Wow, this is an amazing interview.
I've always loved listening to J.Peterson's podcast. Lately more than ever because he is turning to the Church for dialog.🎉🎉🎉
@darrellsharrock3859 Says:
Do not cast pearls before swine also means , those that don’t accept god never will . I have seen too much of this to think otherwise . Sorry , I’m a bit down at the Moment. Some people cannot be saved and we may have to accept it. I cannot fully accept my own words. That is a Dilemma.
@bellanegrin3915 Says:
I believe the Commandments are indeed rank-ordered. If you fail the first, the susequent will fail. You fail the 4th Commandment, the ones that follow will also fail, and so on. Some may find it easy, but I personally find it takes such a deep, deep examination of conscience. It is one of the greatest human endeavors to "try" to fulfill these commands. Every day, every moment.
@DailyCorvid Says:
PRESUMABLY there was no consciousness before man.
PRESUMABLY this
PRESUMABLY that.
If we are going to have to presume your entire premise, then I don't see how your version of Atheism is any different to Christianity in the respect of having faith in it or not. It is based upon feelings, not facts.
Facts do not come after the word presumably, or after miraculous or heavenly interventions. They are on a par in that way - but I think we can all agree we would much rather have a God miracle than a presumably scientific one. It's so childish the Atheism position, I can't believe they've not made any progress upon it given 2000 years. Give up guys accept you are wrong :D
@WYLENEMCINTYRE Says:
I have faith in god and mankind, we are all made in theimage of god
@78Wedin Says:
I think there is a ton of evidence that the bible is true in both ways. I have watched some amazing documentaries that really find evidence of so much. It makes me believe it is all true.
@farmville7609 Says:
The Catholic doctrine contradicts God's Word, the Bible and its instructions. That is why a lot of priests are pedos and nuns have been beating children (even killed) for decades:
Leviticus 26:1 "'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God."
Matthew 23:9 And DO NOT call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one FATHER, and HE is in heaven.
1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; "
Mother of God?
Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47 Someone told him, "Your MOTHER and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
49 Pointing to his DISCIPLES, he said, "HERE are my MOTHER and my brothers.
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and MOTHER."
@basementcreationsbyrhondat6995 Says:
Praying for you, Jordan! I too know what it’s like to live in pain, although I suspect mine is light in comparison. I thoroughly enjoy your content. I may not always agree (not that you can hear my voiced rebuttals) but so much of what you bring to the table provokes much thought, and that’s always a good thing. Thank you for what you do!
@OhCuePie Says:
I wish the leadership of the Roman Catholic church adhered more to the
teachings of Jesus and the Bible than to their own dogmas and traditions.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
@leonardschroer1586 Says:
Jordan I have been following you for a number of years. And I saw your torment with your chosen profession and the toll it was taking on you. Those were dark days for you it was obvious. But my Catholic education always stated that when God closes one door he opens another! That seems to be clearly the case with with you. May God continue to bless you and lead you and others who follow you forward..
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