This episode was recorded on September 7, 2021.
Angus Fletcher and I discuss creativity, the link between literature and resilience, what makes for compelling narratives, the different kinds of stories, and much more.
Angus Fletcher is a Professor of Story Science at Ohio State's Project Narrative, the world's leading academic think-tank for narrative theory. He is also the author of Wonderworks: The 25 Most Important Inventions in the History of Literature.
Find more Angus Fletcher on his website: https://AngusFletcher.co
[00:00] Intro
[01:21] What is Project Narrative?
[02:27] "Stories are the most powerful things ever invented. They're the most powerful tool we possess" Angus Fletcher
[03:04] "When you realize stories have the power to change how our mind works, to troubleshoot it, to make it more resilient, more creative, more scientific�to do all these things... When you couple the power of stories with the human brain, you throw open the doors to anything" AF
[03:53] The problem with literary studies. How stories empower us and improve performance
[07:06] Wonderworks and the story of courage in Homer's Iliad
[12:40] "Literature and scripture are synonyms. They mean 'that which is written.' So [something] more fundamental than any technology... Is simply that sense of spiritual experience" AF
[13:18] The Neuropsychology of Anxiety by J. Grey
[14:44] What are the 2 kinds of stories?
[19:12] Story thinking
[19:22] "Human cognition is largely narrative. We process the world narratively" AF
[22:12] "The wonder of being on this earth... is to build stories and [empower people] to tell their own" AF "And to unite us in a collective story so we can work towards the same ends" JP
[23:00] Why are certain stories so compelling?
[24:48] The zone of proximal development
[25:44] "Being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximal development" JP
[32:14] "The flip side of anxiety is creativity�they're both about restless energy" AF
[33:31] What's the source of dreams?
[33:55] "We have this vast knowledge in embodied action." A great storyteller takes "images that reflect a compelling pattern of behavior [and verbalizes them]' JP
[34:56] Abstract representation of patterns as a dream-source
[31:24] The ideal spirit transcending the individual; Jung's Pleroma
[38:43] Computational power, stories, and the differences between the abstract and particular
[38:48] "Much of what drives the demand for higher computational resources is... producing artificial realities for fantasy simulation" JP
[45:51] Christianity and Star Wars
[46:35] "Star Wars is Christianity for atheist nerds" JP
[46:56] "We are most happy when we don't perceive ourselves as inheriting an archetypal story" AF
[48:16] "We see in stories, and this is partly why our eyes are adapted... so that people can see [the white in] our eyes. It's really important because [our eyes point at] what they're interested in. We can see what they value [and] infer their motivation" JP
[50:36] Literature and psychedelic experiences
[51:27] "In psychotherapy... you're trying to hammer the person's narrative into a single... functional unit" JP
[55:31] Trauma, unconscious mapping, and dream analysis
[56:56] "Any territory you cannot perceive through the overlaid projection of a narrative map is traumatizing" JP
[59:59] Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Erich Neumann
[01:02:51] Jung vs Darwin on stories
[01:10:18] "Literature can build emotional and intellectual resilience" AF
[01:14:55] Being adaptive is 'to be emotionally and intellectually resilient" AF
[01:15:54] Creative training; measuring creativity
#Creativity #Stories #Jung #Literature #Darwin
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Super conversation - thank you for this - I am taking this to my literature courses.
@AdamGeest Says:
He also has a military background. So his openness to work with the military is grounded in past experience.
@AdamGeest Says:
I wish Peterson would listen to or allow this fellow to share more of his ideas.
@AdamGeest Says:
We have been studying narrative in this manner in Paris since at least the early oughts. So, not sure that Ohio State's "think tank" is as maverick and fringe as Angus claims.
@coronnation8854 Says:
Oh I had no Idea this dude existed! Instant fan.
@stevealbertjohnston Says:
I love the dynamic between these dudes
@stevealbertjohnston Says:
I live this guy:)
@CBF922 Says:
Recently, I have had a brush with real malevolence, someone close to me murdered another human being...I am left in the aftermath surrounded by mystical signs, I struggled with self harm and depression and a host of other things as a adolescent. The only story that is helping me understand this horrible horrible curse, and what it means, is understanding THAT THERE IS EVIL. I have found understanding and a true miracle in the story of Christ, and the spirit of GOD.
@jamesmartin2740 Says:
Angus Fletcher looks like a college kid. Wow. Dude is incredibly smart.
@mr.knownothing33 Says:
This was great definitely a part 2 needed
@Leitz_kraft Says:
Interesting conversation... Though, giving this knowledge to business people, so they can manipulate hoards of consumers to buy more wasteful, plastic, excess junk. This seems like a misuse of the power of story. I hope that when people wield this understanding of the human mind, it will be with good intent for humanity and all life on Earth.
@archanglemercuri Says:
1:19:46 may we find balance + openness (as well) because creativity is a poetic participation are of the catalysts we need to re-discover meaning & autonomous purpose.
• otherwise some may not realize, and worse, some may realize: they are just making copies of themselves. If that's the case, live on an island with holograms.
@Left4Bed151 Says:
Why does Jordan keep saying "The Absolute" when it should be "The Abstract"...
@adamb1863 Says:
Part two please Jordan!
@j.t.4072 Says:
This was a great conversation to listen to. I'd love to hear a part two.
A thought came to me while I was listening to the back and forth about the idea of there being a central or foundational narrative. Forgive me if this is redundant or poorly stated.
As a Christian, the notion that there is a central/foundational narrative is one that I wholly endorse. It's the narrative that God has established for the created world. Whether someone believes God created everything actively or merely allowed circumstances to develop within the cosmos that made our existence a possibility, there can be no other logical conclusion than to acknowledge God's narrative for creation is the foundational narrative. Specifically as a Christian, I would suggest that the narrative of God is laid out quite plainly in the Bible. The narrative follows the creation, fall, rebellion, salvation and eventual reunion with God of humanity. God is clearly a force for order, so rebellion is inherently going to muck things up. The Bible tells us that God is so capable He is still able to complete His narrative even with humanity's failings, which reinforces the concept that God's narrative is the central and foundational narrative.
To Angus' s idea that humanity's narrative is individual and flexible rather than adhering to a central narrative, I'd strongly suggest that the demonstration of this choosing one's own narrative over the one God has is when humanity gets itself into trouble. Humanity certainly wants to do things humanity's way, and to an extent free will and choice play a pivotal role in humanity's portion of God's central narrative. According to Biblical doctrine though, it's only when humanity chooses God's "narrative" (whether for their own life or the running of a country) that things go well for anything other than a fleeting moment or in satisfying a carnal desire, both of which may end up being a net negative for the individual, family or society.
Anyways, it was a good discussion, and I'd love to hear a part two, as previously stated. Dr. Peterson, thank you for sharing. God bless you and your family.
@tynor20 Says:
“The opposite of anxiety is creativity”. I used to tell students when working at a college that most people’s problems were a lack of imagination
@Miss__Gee Says:
Jordan looks so excited by this converation. It's really good to see.
@m3po22 Says:
21:00 does he not know about recurrent neural networks?
@leesarenee5757 Says:
Listening to these conversations is SO elevating. Even a dummy like me has access to the greatest minds alive on the planet. What a time to be alive and aware.
@nothinhappened Says:
What a brilliant conversation. So, are stories a technogy we use as a tool for our innate drive for narrative? Because my laymen mind is thinking that if narrative is built in. And central to everything else.. then language is the technology we invented so that we can express and embody narrative as stories? Meaning stories are not the technology of narrative but the product of it. Almost like a story is the qualia of narrative. It is narratives physical manifeststion. Is narrative a qualia?
Hopefully I didn't sound too dumb then..
Would love to hear the two of you speak again by the way.
Thank you again for the content.
@melissajones5985 Says:
more of this
@zeusthundrbolt Says:
I wish we had heard what Mr Fletcher has discovered and relayed in the book. I have bought the book , as at least that came thru from the reading of the chapter headings at the beginning. That’s why we need another interview.
I would like to hear more about the Darwinian view and the role that individual stories play in helping us cope with the world.
So many us have come and integrated into the American society because of the underlying story of freedom, hard work , acceptance and making anything of ourselves and having the opportunity to be who we want to be. Thanks for introducing us to this new perspective of looking at the world and the power of stories for personal growth. Time to go listen to the book and learn more.
@davidlakhter Says:
58:08 agreed! "Any territory you cannot perceive through the overlaid projection of a narrative map is traumatizing"
@davidlakhter Says:
56:30 this is what Jordan says about Sam Harris too haha
@davidlakhter Says:
54:15 so true!
@davidlakhter Says:
49:17 for sure
@davidlakhter Says:
26:56 "being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximal development and facilitates imitation" - great point about being gripped by the power of the story when our intuition lets us know we're in the zone of proximal development. agreed, the biological basis for this is the instinct for mimicry, which operates in literature - abstract mimicry. and my thought here is the way this plays in literature is if one is immersed in a text, it's very easy to view different frameworks of thought and abstract a certain idea.
@davidlakhter Says:
20:34 agreed - "we process the world narratively and this is what makes our brain function different from computers"
@davidlakhter Says:
20:16 "there isn't anything more basic to our abstract thinking than that sort of nesting inside of stories."
@amandacollyer645 Says:
Great guest; bought the book. Very interesting that the military is pursuing creativity training faster than Academia.
@christianjack8189 Says:
I very much enjoyed this conversation, thanks fellas. I like this Angus chap more than I expected too, particularly because of his personal perspective on being existentially more free by not chasing money. Even though Angus is well off financially, I think he's on the right track there and its the tip of the iceberg regarding what pursing passions and curiosity at the expense of other things, living with more risk can offer.
@danrocky2553 Says:
These conversations are a breath of fresh air
@jeanpaulfelix4095 Says:
Please explain to people....even doctors...that long term studies on humans means after the drugs have been adminsitered....not before.
@jeanpaulfelix4095 Says:
Jan 13 2022....the americans just mandated experimental injections in all healthcare workers. NO ONE should be
mandated to take experimental drugs.
@aditimascarenhas5608 Says:
I loved this episode. I would love to hear more.
@Zx93. Says:
JB Peterson was brilliant, as usual on these issues (he really needs to take a year or two to study Hegel which Jung and Campbell themselves used to echoe cf. the articulation particular/universal, the aufhebung concept ie the infinite as a constant (re)creation - not repetition, etc.)
On the other way, that AFletcher dude was really bad...
Thx a lot ;)
@gethypnotherapy Says:
definitely want more of him
@SgtMcNasty Says:
Hmmm I work in school with children and teens with Autism. We all know that they have difficulties with social interactions and social codes. But I wonder how much their "story" being different from the rest of us can impact their life. Hmmm just thinking out loud sorry. But maybe that could also be a component that makes them have a hard time decoding life. I´ve also been thinking in terms of social logic.
I do this because I find what I have to work with now is not suffient to help guid them and make them grow in the social content.
We can´t just say that they have difficulties in decoding some social interactions. That is not something I can work with.
I need a structure of let´s say social logic that gives me some set perimiters that I can then apply to the human that always will be different to the next.
Arghh I would love to have 5 minutes (more like 5 hours) to get your input on all of this.
All the literature I can find is on kids with autsim is all just about bacis structure and all that. I need to reach further.
It´s just not good enough!!!!
@PJVerh0ef Says:
Petition to interview Mattias Desmet on Mass Formation. Should be a great conversation on the mass psychology of Covid fears (or other like climate).
@101TOPY Says:
We need your videos translated into Arabic pls
@Spriteanimator1 Says:
It's kinda hilarious that Fletcher accuses (as far as this can be an "accusation", it's more like... normal) literary studies of creating interpretations that go along with the ideology of the scholars while setting his own ideology as the basis for his own studies.
13:50 No, literature and scripture are not synonymous. There is (or was) a huge tradition of literature being told orally rather than scriptive. Funnily enough, Homer (if he existed) was one of the most famous partakers in that because he was probably blind. Bards could also be named as an example.
@mountainrambler7926 Says:
1:14:43 military folk make good money and receive extraordinary benefits
@oliviergoethals4137 Says:
The world (Objective reality) is only about stories. BELIEVED stories is our only outward experience. The world is a reflection of personal imagination and felt trust in ones imagination. If you don't believe this story, the reality you present to yourself will reflect this belief of not believing. Which itself is your imagined believed story. So be careful what you imagine😉
@mohammadusman9093 Says:
What a fascinating podcast. Jordan Peterson looked impressed by the end of the video. This guy is too prepared for any topic jordan brings into conversation.
@Mythologos Says:
Wow, Fletcher's a special kind of special and boy will he let you know about it.
@danielgraytube Says:
01:13:50, the under appreciation of security.
@tamasynclare913 Says:
I absolutely LOVED this talk Jordan. I would love to see another WITH Angus at some point. I would also love to see you chat with Katherine Birbalsingh about education and how teachers can learn from what she is doing - if you think we can.
Also, Neil Olivier would be EPIC! I've just discovered him.
@johnweibel1128 Says:
In my mind, personal integration in the narrative of culture, is the yin/yang symbol. One foot in chaos, one in order. Following the Way. But it isn't enough. It's unstable. To become stable is to develop a deep root of integration along the Way, while still moving in the journey of Life.
Have a hard time with the Darwinistic view of integrating the self.
@jonathangomez4795 Says:
@jordan, please, please take a look at Ron Wyatt. He has discovered the Ark of the Covenant and Jesus Blood. Please review this.
@invin7215 Says:
Great conversation! I think this one deserves more views.
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