Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Jonathan Pageau discuss the depth of narrative found in the classic fairy tales, the loss of positively impactful narratives in the wake of woke culture, the potential utility of Ai as a means to prod new insights from historic and biblical texts, the cynicism of postmodernism, and the overall necessity to preserve foundational storytelling.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a YouTube channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
- Sponsors -
Moink: Get FREE bacon in your first Moink order today!
http://www.MoinkBox.com/JBP
Elysium: Get $50 off an Index test! Use code 'JBP50' at https://www.elysiumhealth.com/Index
- Links -
For Jonathan Pageau:
Help Kickstart The Symbolic World Press:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/symbolicworldpress/snow-white-and-the-widow-queen
The Symbolic World (Website)
https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/
Jonathan Pageau on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@JonathanPageau
Jonathan Pageau on Twitter https://twitter.com/PageauJonathan?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:24) Intro
(1:56) Writing fairy tales
(2:23) Betty Boop, Fleischer Studios
(3:41) Recapturing Snow White
(4:56) The core of foundational stories
(7:17) Postmodernism and metanarratives
(8:46) Answering the question, story pattern
(10:10) Micro narratives, metaphors for puberty
(12:53) Modeling adulthood for children
(15:35) Meaning of change, Piaget
(19:24) Embodying the character, psychopathology
(25:12) Knowledge of beauty
(30:02) Dark mirrors, being fed your carnal desires
(34:19) The mechanisms of attention, Ai targeting
(36:15) Aladdin, Solomon, infinite power
(40:14) The spirit that call to you
(42:47) Pointed elements, levels of elaboration
(45:51) Jung, dream amplification
(49:01) The weaponization of beauty, parallel symbolism
(52:09) Dream analysis
(54:45) Speaking to the King James Bible through Ai
(58:02) Binding mythologies with religion in the ancient world
(1:00:28) Asking Bard if it believes in God
(1:03:08) Hype divination, digital necromancy, non-human agency
(1:05:32) The degree of change, superficial learning
(1:07:46) Giving up the legitimacy of of reality
(1:09:15) Strange players in the next U.S. election
(1:11:00) Tell better stories, ARC
(1:14:54) The giants that derail us, Jack and the Beanstalk
(1:22:26) When the narrative and objective would meet
(1:23:12) If the doors swing open, stop pushing
(1:26:16) Inviting tyranny, the castrating narrative
(1:29:18) Building out the biblical cosmos
(1:34:11) Connected universes, Jason and the Argonauts
(1:35:27) The Symbolic World Publishing
(1:37:30) The deep cynicism of postmodern storytelling
(1:39:37) Bringing back darker elements in a modern way
// SUPPORT THIS CHANNEL //
Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/jordanbpeterson.com/youtubesignup
Donations: https://jordanbpeterson.com/donate
// COURSES //
Discovering Personality: https://jordanbpeterson.com/personality
Self Authoring Suite: https://selfauthoring.com
Understand Myself (personality test): https://understandmyself.com
// BOOKS //
Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life: https://jordanbpeterson.com/Beyond-Order
12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos: https://jordanbpeterson.com/12-rules-for-life
Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief: https://jordanbpeterson.com/maps-of-meaning
// LINKS //
Website: https://jordanbpeterson.com
Events: https://jordanbpeterson.com/events
Blog: https://jordanbpeterson.com/blog
// SOCIAL //
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson
Instagram: https://instagram.com/jordan.b.peterson
Facebook: https://facebook.com/drjordanpeterson
Telegram: https://t.me/DrJordanPeterson
All socials: https://linktr.ee/drjordanbpeterson
#JordanPeterson #JordanBPeterson #DrJordanPeterson #DrJordanBPeterson #DailyWirePlus
“The eternal predicament of women, to be surrounded by dwarfed men.” Wow, yes! I long for men who will lean into their masculine energy, provide with joy, not make a wife and mother who want to stay home and raise her children feel like a burden, and protect.
I wanted to be a wife and mother desperately, I gladly worked to pitch in when needed. The financial burden to provide is heavy and real.
The men around me that felt keeping me controlled, caged and “protected” by keeping me small and not engaged in the community was/is suffocating.
We need men who do feel they are in competition with their wives, secure enough that when we have covenanted to be faithful to them, do not accuse us of being unfaithful every time we talk to a man. “Dwarfed men” what a sad and accurate description of many.
@nahomafriend Says:
i love you guys. this is from ethiopia.
@phyllisjackson4322 Says:
God always has a plan.
@phyllisjackson4322 Says:
So, social media is the manifestation of narcicism. Insidious.
@ScottCline-r2t Says:
Jordan (whom I often appreciate) says that it is very reasonable for his daughter-in-law to be away from her one and three year olds (to help him with his venture) since children need to see adults doing valuable things so that they will grow to do valuable things.
Meaning no disrespect, several questions come to mind immediately:
(1) Are child-bearing and child-rearing valuable things?
Isn't it sexist to imply that a woman shifts from less valuable work to more valuable work when she shifts from that which is unique to women to that which is common to men?
(2) Is he assuming that a one year old and a three year old understand why their mom is gone? Obviously they cannot understand, and cannot derive any value from this.
As they *do* eventually grow to understand that mom is gone to do "valuable work," what will this imply to them about their care and formation?
(And don't we want children to see this uniquely valuable work modeled?)
(3) The theory isn't supported by the history. Most of history's most productive, creative, brilliant, pious, "valuable" figures were reared within pre-industrial household economies in which mothers were present.
Whereas our concerning decline in even common sense correlates to relatively recent shifts in division of labor. (I do not claim that these things correlate causatively -- they may or may not -- I just point out that there is less than no evidence to support the idea that mothers leaving babies and toddlers for kinds of work that are incompatible with their care somehow predicts better things for those children.)
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
That is aligning with vibration in religion Aum; Amenl Amin.
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
A wonderful intelligent discussion; the best.
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
Little Red Riding Hood is to watch out for the Big Bad Wolf, which when she grows up is the human male.
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
All that was wiped out by Protestantism; people become totally rational and consequently totally crazy.
@tristantinnon1926 Says:
Aren't non-Abrahamic materials...fundamental to all this? The related pagandoms and their shuffling mythologies. And certainly Eleusinian and other mystery cults. The gap between Dionysus and Christ is barely there, John the Baptist playing Hermes. And it expands far beyond the Hellenic world's religious culture. I think there's a DEEPLY NATURALISTIC central, syncratic place for a better more historically accurate version of the Jesus Story inside Western Eurasian Paganism(s). I make a case it got botched, and for sinister reasons, but we have all sorts of text and human means to discerning truth. Hell, I'll go way out on limbs...You can just ask Moses and Jesus to tell you about themselves and their works. Done right, you may well get a hauntingly vivid reply.
@tristantinnon1926 Says:
Snow White? It was Freya and only four dwarves. With whom she spent a night each for a necklace. I think it was a magical necklace...I hope it was anyway. Odin gets pissed and one of those typically Germanic Shakespearean schemes plays out to steal Freya's necklace and slut-shame her (even though she is literally Germanic Venus-Aphrodite. Shows how morally dynamic, ambiguous, and, well, human our old stories can be. In Norse pagan 'Sleeping Beauty,' Brunhilde turns Sigurt into a shaman who can understand the song of Nature. These used to be POWERFUL moral presentations. That we have lost them, or treat them as consumerist entertainment, is tragic and even perverse.
@home8630 Says:
Why is it, that the two JPs you automatically assume the woman in the role of the domestic, serving the men's purpose? It couldn't be that this woman, who represents neither gender but purity, who is a reconciler, organiser, gets their home, lives in order, and because of her they found the true meaning to love that has got nothing to do with sex or gender. They stopped fighting came together, and found fulfilment outside of themselves. By helping her come into her life into her rightful place, defeat the evil, they became selfless among other things because they stopped thinking about themselves and thought about purity in love. Which led to the fulfilment of true love, along with transformation of the whole which led to everyone coming back into their rightful places, lives and it was all fulfilled and everyone lived happy ever other.
@aaronsmith2942 Says:
28:10: lol Peterson was hilarious & didn't even know it... 'Madonna'
@whitneyferoce4870 Says:
The part knowledge of beauty i think the witch tries to make her aware of her beauty coaxing her to enhance and see herself because nothing is more beautiful than modesty. The perfect woman who is the Blessed Mother ofcourse.. she destroys evil with her humility and modesty. Im catholic and thats how i always interpreted it
@jennylynn215 Says:
A jordan peterson AI system. 😂
@avechristvs Says:
I need this AI tool
@SkyAdams-l7s Says:
we have to tell a better story. yes. thank you both!
@cristy0716 Says:
I was looking forward to this conversation and it’s one of the most boring ones that I’ve heard so far.
@flamechick6 Says:
Amazing ❤
@MarleneYCM Says:
I’m so enjoying following the depths of this talk-what is so distracting though is how Jonathan is constantly being interrupted. It’s every time he speaks. Jordan has to interject and doesn’t give him a chance to finish a full thought-I’m trying to listen and Jordan just can’t help but cut him off. More listening & allowing the guest to get a word out would be great.
@emiljano.cami.01 Says:
I am glad I am seeing this.
@GeistGuard Says:
I think we need to run away from AI. Granted people who want power will use it regardless. But we need to walk away from digital sub-reality and get re acquainted with actual reality. The world needs to become big again and our social groupings qualitative and smaller. Keeping the virtues we have learned by means of interconnectedness so we don't "us vs. Them" to hell
@amichaelthomas83 Says:
I love the Lobster jacket Professor Peterson.
@kawaii_princess_castle Says:
AI: an attempt to control people full stop!! And saying that machines are better than humans is pure misantropy! People with a minimum of dignity will never buy It!
@profeh3346 Says:
Bought copies of Snow White for grandchildren - wish I no get more copies! Can’t wait for the next, and the next after that! ❤
@veselgana Says:
Very interesting conversation!
@leeroy1986 Says:
The realisation about the phone and mirror. Wow, just wow!
@maya.lingreen Says:
The swaginess of Petersons drip is always at 100
@R바르셀로나 Says:
1:01:01
@boomguitarjared Says:
1:31:50 That's a really interesting point. I think it's because any kind of changing/adapting Christian stories can become blasphemous to those who want the story to be preserved, for fear of the message being .and not corrupted, changed, or diluted Using pagan, or just making new mythos such as C.S. Lewis or Tolkien's works allows them to communicate whatever messages they want in a way that is removed from people's pre-conceptions, using ideas that are an augmentation of our real world (elves, talking animals, magic and abilities not found in our world today, ect) to communicate messages that are relatable to the real world as we understand it.
@gaebitch3200 Says:
Bro these medieval groups of ppl are only connecting themselves is because they became settled and developed ‘civilized’ culture, instead of nomads. But all part of a broader family of peoples of which the Romans, Greeks, Trojans, and more before them. These Germanic, Scandinavian, Russian, Latin, Anglo peoples are all just other branches of a family, carrying the torch pretty much of Western Civ.
@bigboibenny1609 Says:
Huh, I didn't think I would listen to Jordan peterson talk to an iconographer about how Snow white relates to menstruation today, but here I am!
@lebenergy247 Says:
These two gentlemen are very intriguing to listen to
@cezarcristian4666 Says:
You know when Jordan Peterson is wearing a lobster coat the content is going to be great!
@NotNowCato1254 Says:
Jordan's conversations with Jonathan are at another level. The subjects discussed almost don't matter. Great pleasure may be derived from listening (and watching) two friends in deep, animated and enthusiastic discussion. Thank you gentlemen.
@ryanroberts2002 Says:
Aligning ourselves properly -“But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Matthew 6:33
@briansimerl4014 Says:
I'd never thought about Snow White as being so psychologically in tune with women but it really is. Stupid dwarf men all working but are all 1 dimensional and not big enough for Snow White is a very pro feminine ultra aggressive insult to men at large as mostly worker children to be taken care of. It's actually very true also that their virginal beauty comes into contact with vain female competitors (i.e. the Queen). Very deep and interesting. And the whole thing about kissing while she's asleep, she sang a song wishing for it "some day my Prince will come". And they lived happily ever after. Not she was raped and went into therapy. Like who let the rape victims determine all cultural values? That's a bad move.
@aquatroy Says:
Pageau's examination of merging fairy tales together makes me think of Neil Gaiman's Nordic Mythology.
@WestCoastBroodWar Says:
"The job of a woman" - CANCELED!
@tensevo Says:
if you want all your basic needs met,
that dispenses with truth and beauty, right off the bat.
@donbozarth6627 Says:
In the end what I can take away from this entire conversation is that the variance from past to present is that over the course of time man as a whole has modified his world into a prison. By that I mean that man has lost the ability to self navigate the vastness of life. Navigation is merely a method of triangulation. From where I am I must isolate two points in space so that I can compare the distance from one point to the other and to point at which I myself occupy. Whether it be the Holy Trinity or any other form of spiritual triangulation we traded the wisdom and knowledge we can gain from reflection of past wisdom and now have exchanged it for the wisdom of the present which by its' own nature is not wisdom at all. The lack of analogs based on the virtues of wisdom gained by ancestry leaves a vacuum.
For decades we as a species have moved our points of interest on our map of life closer and closer to ourselves to somehow remove the suffering or labor of having to navigate our own lives as our own agents thinking that is progress. The issue is when our entire scope of knowledge is merely the present, any malevolent being can insert their analogs into your mind without you even noticing. Call it narrative or propaganda the result is the same. As man moves farther away from his own measured triangulation as he traverses the vastness of life the closer he becomes subject to the subjective. The malevolent being tells man he can do what he wants without consequence. Man says, "man you are right". So, man peers into the mirror and sees his present state and superimposes whatever he wants upon the image he sees and then assigns his own version of truth to it. He has no desire to seek context any longer because he makes his own context to fit his present desires. At that point you cease to have agency although as he peers into the mirror he believes he has found the most profound sense of agency. But as he moves forward in life he finds the dark hole or vacuum his perceived agency has locked him into. A prison to which on his own he cannot escape. He has become bound by the malevolent.
The stories, legends, and written history if man chooses to read and absorb act as a guiding light in the triangulation. Maybe waypoints or analogs he can draw from to know what not to do. To parametrically model his course. The cell phone, social media, and the culture have become so insanely present that practically everyone you see is basically a carbon copy of the other. Each without any true context to draw from so they all draw from the same "context" which is merely the narrative or propagations of the malevolent disguised as paradise man can have right here and right now if you only.... Give me your soul. Give me your agency. I will let you eat any fruit you want. The malevolent plan is as evil as it is brilliant. Erase one point in the triangle and make all things and all men navigate from 2 points of reference. The reference dictated and the reference obeyed.
Thank you gentlemen for the honest questioning and non-trivial story telling that I hope will one day return to man. From that, wisdom of our God or God's depending on your persuasion will return man back to whence he came. There is no wisdom to come from a magic mirror as it magically tells you anything you want hear and shows you anything you want to see. The mirror convinces you to voluntarily walk into a prison and close the door yourself. Sometimes the prison is virtual which one can escape. Most times as history teaches us, it is not virtual at all. Sadly, as man celebrates his bliss in his prison home, he fails to recognize that he volunteered to live in what is actually the Abyss and gave the key to any escape directly to the malevolent one who owns the entire Abyss.
@skyhavender Says:
I am not going to lie, i am excited about the future of AI.
We never know what it will bring or not bring.
But Tbh it wont be my problem for long.
I am atm only 30 but when this has gone mainstream i will be an old man with one Foot in the grave.
Soo i dont care about it that much. 😅😅
@adrianmasters250 Says:
The meeting of the two JPs, this is going to be good.
@giann7020 Says:
LOOOOLLL..1) I just can´t buy the interviewees follow Jordan´s endless rabbit-hole analysis as accurate as it may look, and I wouldn´t blame them lol; 2) A times it feels like Jordan is self-interviewing himself, and 4) I looove Jordan´s outfit!! No pun intended huh! Just my two cents, I do admire and enjoy most of Jordan´s input to modern psychology :)
@elijahmountainfire888 Says:
Why didn't Tolkien put his narrative in the Christian setting?
Because we would wind up with The Chosen.
And The Bible doesn't need expanding. Or tweaking or endless rewrites.
Or human input and interpretation upon interpretation.
It just needs to be open and read.
It is already perfectly Clear. Cleared up by the Holy Spirit at work.
Every single Word has been weighed by the scales of Mr. Justice, The Truth HIMSelf.
Human beings can't make it more perfect. Even if they (foolishly) try.
So it is good that Tolkien decided to make a world of its own for his characters.
What is the warning at the end of the Book of Revelation?
'And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
GOD shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.' (KJV Revelation 22.19)
Tolkien as a Christian knew about this warning.
Every secular book is The Bible wannabe. Even the best of the best - LOTR.
AMEN.
@tracyann484 Says:
"Then, by an incomprehensible judgement God, the freethinkers and the great skeptics of the last times will take these impostures and conjuring ticks seriously. Duped by their own presumption and credulity, they will plunge headlong into all the follies of necromancy and divination, thus vindicating, in the face of the world, the oracle of the Sacred Books: "The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons". From the book; The End of the Present World, pg 47 the actions of the antichrist.
@Stadtpark90 Says:
1:31:11 Christianity has become countercultural enough
@maureenbrown1425 Says:
Thank you Both for your insightful analysis. Captivating conversation to say the least. A couple of thoughts of my own were: #1, Is it any surprise that the 'Macintosh' Computer was named Apple?
#2, On the topic of Jack and the been-stalk, I pictured the been-stalk rather like the female reproductive anatomy. During inception through the birth canal the female casts off the seeds that aren't strong enough to reach the Golden Egg. Heaven being the fertilization where the Creation process begins.
@Marcus-p5i5s Says:
In FACT, there is yet no A.I. We hardly have expert systems much less artificial intelligence. But, people are making money off of the scam.
LATEST COMMENTS