This episode was recorded on June 6th, 2021.
Dr. Peterson, Steven Pinker, and Jonathan Haidt sit down to discuss truth, how societies function, utopias, the role of religion, & more.
Steven Pinker is a psychology professor at Harvard. He's the author of Enlightenment Now and The Blank Slate. His 12th book, "Rationality," is out now. Dr. Pinker has received many awards and often writes for The Guardian and The NY Times.
Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at NYU Stern. His research focuses on the intuitive foundations of morality across cultures. He's the author of The Righteous Mind and The Coddling of the American Mind. His next book, "Three Stories about Capitalism," is expected by 2022.
Follow Steven's Twitter:
https://twitter.com/sapinker
Read Steven Pinker's book:
https://stevenpinker.com/publications/rationality-what-it-why-it-seems-so-scarce-and-why-it-matters
Find more Jonathan Haidt here:
https://www.thecoddling.com/
Read Jonathan's book:
https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224919
Jonathan's most recent essay:
https://www.persuasion.community/p/haidt-monomania-is-illiberal-and
____
[0:00] Intro
[00:18] Jordan introduces guests Dr. Stephen Pinker and Dr. Jonathan Haidt
[02:47] Catching up with the recent research and endeavors of Jonathan Haidt. Elaborating on the framework of moralism versus true and false when viewing the world
[07:00] How cognitive biases lead to a more pessimistic view of the world
[10:30] The problems with the idea of utopia and its beneficial uses when properly inserted into a society's belief (religious) structure
[18:00] Examining the role group religions play in bringing people together
[24:30] Jordan highlights the role he believes Christianity had in turning people's attention to the evil within us all
[29:30] Reflections on Enlightenment Now. How do you engage people towards a higher set of goals without religion as a backbone?
[38:00] Is the world we live in a new frontier based on the expanding influence of the internet and social media on individuals' decision-making?
[48:00] Discussion on the dangers posed by the new world to the endurance of liberal democracies
[56:00] Finding truth in the post-2012 social media revolution
[1:06:00] The rate of change in modern life
[1:07:00] The Righteous Mind, Haidt's interpretation of the religious instinct/impulse and why he gets a positive reaction from religious crowds
[1:06:00] Saying goodbye to Dr. Pinker due to time constraints
[1:17:30] The human ability for imitation through learning or exploring
[1:25:30] Religion as a social function? Or an inherent impulse inside us all to find higher states?
[1:29:30] Comparing views on the central uniting principle of groups, societies, or human beings for that matter
[1:33:00] Is the extreme claim that power is the central driving factor of western European civilization grounded in reality?
[1:37:52] Is having a common purpose or shared beliefs a more powerful way of bringing people together?
[1:45:00] Recounting Haidt's research on disgust in both humans and animals
[1:52:00] Exploring any correlation to disgust levels and political beliefs/alliance
[02:02:30] Wrapping up
____
Visit www.jordanbpeterson.com for more information about Jordan, his books, lectures, social media, blog posts, and more.
Dr. Peterson has appeared on many popular podcasts and shows, including the Joe Rogan Experience, The Rubin Report, H3H3, and many more. Dr. Peterson's own podcast has focused mainly on his lecture series, covering a great deal of psychology and historical content. Jordan is expanding his current podcast from lectures to interviews with influential people around the world. We hope you enjoy this episode and more to come from Dr. Peterson in the future.
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the factions is a funny concept, i just do me and i think about what other people say as i can understand it and respond with my understanding. people are constantly trying to figure out which faction i belong to as if they dont know what it is to be māori and then when i say im just māori they think im trying to align with māori cultural values instead of being māoriori.
because i do not sell my soul all factions are against me because i wont repeat their words nor oppose their evils.
I cant wait for them to destroy each other so i can go live in the bush alone
@F1986R Says:
1:37:00 The power argument is misandrist. I know that they do try to frame it the other way around. But it's very condescending and untrue. The fact that there is a minority that does it doesn't mean that we all do it for that reason. This is also a tactic that some women do this, some is key here, which is basically projection in a way. Because they have a misandrist view of this, and to avoid being called out on it, they'd accuse us of doing it because of misogyny. This is what the Arabic saying describes as they hit me and then ran away first to complain, ضربني وبكى سبقني واشتكى.
@F1986R Says:
1:18:00 I totally agree with Dr. Jordan Peterson on this one, people look at sports in a very simplistic way. A clear evidence of this is individual sports like tennis, Formula 1, or Boxing. It's very easy to see why the more obvious social aspect would be considered to be the cause.
@TINA-k8f Says:
I think it’s harder for intelligent individuals to believe in religion because they rely on their intellect.
@RuthCooper-l6j Says:
Thank you team Peterson we all need this talk
@JLo-py9gt Says:
3 of my fav thinkers
@giovanni02 Says:
Journalism is a highly non random sample of the worst things that have happened in any given period. - Steven Pinker
@1dollar676 Says:
Three of the greatest minds of our time, love the talks thanks
@tamaska2000 Says:
Objective vs subjective moralism.....or is it both? An objective moral 'compass' overall, but individual (including groups) interperting their understanding of this objective code differently leading to misaligned subjective moral codes......
@tamaska2000 Says:
1:19:20
The Divine Creator is tge stadium
@Mike-c8x Says:
1:12:00
@bradgers92 Says:
Ownership of responsibility
@bradgers92 Says:
No.
@bradgers92 Says:
Mass psychoses all will end
@bradgers92 Says:
The news isn't real, just as there is no formal process of complaint. If you couldn't speak why would you listen
@bradgers92 Says:
Ideological bullshit. You call this democracy?
@bradgers92 Says:
Laws are good for the economy
@hikerJohn Says:
Satin knows God will bring his "utopia" so Satin offers us a counterfeit and has man try to make it happen. Heaven is spiritual not political. It will only happen in the next world not this one. It's not as Jordan said "future" but in another dimension and it is now. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jordan likes Christianity for it's stories but he is not a Christian and does not believe the message.
@Novous Says:
Btw the ants quote at roughly 1:32:00 is actually hitchhikers guide not eo wilson
@DanaMueller-k4n Says:
As per the border illustration...
Conservatives don't see immigrants (legal or illegal) as parasitical in the disease aspect, although that could be an issue, what they see as parasitical is people coming here getting benefits and not paying into a well established financial economy. Where in the past, immigrants and slaves built this country out of nothing, those coming today are in the shadows.
It's like forcing citizens to take a vaccine but others don't have to. (By the way, they actually did that during Covid.)
Personally we have to contribute to Social security, medicare etc. Those in the shadows don't. Yet they can absorb those benefits.
That is "Disgust" for the Conservative. A corruption of a well established system. Tearing at the fabric.
@DanaMueller-k4n Says:
The concept that we're "connected" but dispersed at the same time, is an illustration that things aren't "practical."
This should be an indicator of something that should be thrown in the fire. It's not beneficial to the Tribe. It's actually a detriment to the good of the Tribe.
Yet we want to keep it and look for some way to justify keeping it. Sounds like a civilization heading toward a cliff.
@DanaMueller-k4n Says:
Love this presentation!
Great thinkers!
There seems to be a lot said these days about "Truth" in the medias.
As noted by the guests there has rarely ever been truth in news, politics or advertising.
Everyone seems to be looking for some dialectic that will allow all people to sit in harmony and figure out their differences. "If we could all just get along."
These men miss the obvious. Our Ancestors ruled out untruth by practical application. If one thought they had created something that would benefit the Tribe, but it failed miserably, the Tribe threw it in the fire. Only what benefited man was allowed to Progress. That has been the story of humankind. (The basis for Conservatism.)
If people put information on the internet, in academia, in newspapers, or the nightly news that doesn't pass muster, throw it in the fire.
People used to sell "Tonics" that were fraudulent (Buyer Beware) Are we still gullible? If so, do some think that they need to regulate what is practical and beneficial for the Tribe today.
If what someone is selling isn't any good, let it be exposed as Bad.
If we can't tell good or bad, maybe it should be shelved for another day.
Seems too many people are trying to push ideologies today instead of things that are practical.
Practical was: a flint spear, the wheel, the light bulb, antibiotics, steam power, canvas sail, etc.
Is it that everyone just wants to be in charge? Does everybody think they have the answers?
We have a great civilization, just roll with it!!!
@willmercury Says:
Pinker fails to realize that empirical and rational problems are not the only ones for which we need to solve.
@TheKonecny Says:
Religion has heaven and hell. However, the idea is like black and white. People make such worlds and mistakenly understand them as black and white.
@aucontraire1986 Says:
You think you can’t make problem solving cool? Watch the movie Interstellar and take notes.
@sergiocastilho2700 Says:
Did the guest questioned the possibility of left thinking authoritarianism? Really? Did he hear about Soviet Union? Cuba? Venezuela? North Korea? So on and so forth…also, conservative cannot be associated either with disgust or security seeking…this is a try to reduce the most complex and oldest line of thought to a single element. Conservatives are aware they f how difficult it is to build something of value and how easy it is to destroy it and at the same instance values natural rights and liberties individual autonomy and agency, among obviously many other elements. This cannot go along with disgust security seeking at any cost, what has been proven to be an element for f the left during COVID. Look, associating Nazism to conservative thinking or the right is already completely out of way, doesn’t need to much to remember it was England facing them against since the beginning. That was just authoritarianism based on contempt. Disgust and security seeking are marks of authoritarians, what does not go along with conservative and right thinking.
@ALavin-en1kr Says:
It is interesting how atheists are increasingly borrowing religious terminology such as Enlightenment. It started with the Age of Reason or the so-called Enlightenment after which horrors occurred. Horrors occurred in modern times, not only in the ascent from a Dark Age to the Age of Reason, when the Dark Occult was feared and draconian measures were used to keep it out of the mainstream
Horrors happened in The Age of Reason and Enlightenment, all brought about by the Righteous Mind that rivaled anything the Dark Age had come up with. At least then it was the Dark Age so there was some excuse.
Steven Pinker is right that things are, and will get better; however, it has nothing to do with rationalism or the righteous mind. It has to do with with Precession of the Equinoxes; the ascent from a Dark Age to a Quantum Age in which human intelligences increases, and even if Consciousness and Mind are not fully understood yet, at least we are getting there.
@sophisticat7673 Says:
how long will it be befire we classify stupidity as a disblility and impose some positiv discrimination to force employers to hire stupid people..?
@sophisticat7673 Says:
I love old Stevie P but in this video he seems to have the eyes of a crazed lunatic (forgive the tautology) which i find somewhat distracting...
@wendellbabin6457 Says:
16:55 But the wellbeing "THING" DEGENERATES immediately into who decides EXACTLY what that constitutes. When? Who is going to PAY for all this wellbeing? And for WHOM exactly. Who goes first? And who EXACTLY is going to do all of the work to make it REALITY?
THE SAME EXACT THINGS THAT ARE CAUSING THE FOMENT WE SEE RIGHT NOW, GENTS. And hasn't stopped since somebody decided it was a "goal".
Sorry, not yelling, couldn't find my "Geezer Eyes" and I ain't retyping. That whole "thing" is about as ridiculous as Emojis if you ask me.
@hueyvan2007 Says:
So much word salad from Jodan Peterson. Somehow I cannot shake the thought that he is an atheist pandering to believing audience for the sake of an audience from which he makes an exceptional living.
@gerrycrabtree3274 Says:
Haidt not flying the flag after 911 when he wanted to because he didn't want his liberal cohorts to think he may have republican leanings speaks volumes.
@sulljoh1 Says:
1:59:26 Jon didn't know about Hitler's table talk? Dawkins "God Delusion" mentioned it - and he attacked that book quite a bit. I guess he never read it???
@joelabraham708 Says:
the best part is at the end when they say, "oh yeah, by the way, remember that not one thing any of us has ever said or studied or researched can be replicated ... none of it ... even by our own grad students"
@burnonedown2day Says:
This was a very interesting and entertaining talk!
@tenillehafner6471 Says:
I'm willing it's not about or up to me , WE is the way to take back our life! But I know it al starts right her(pointing at myself)
@AlanRipman Says:
🤢
@targoltran Says:
As a Psychology major, I do agree with Dr. Pinker. Non-random samples do not provide a realistic picture pertaining to behavior research. At least this is my view. I do not agree that the world has become a better place. We have Ukraine and Russian war. In addition, the war between Hamas and Israel. I think both Jordan and Steven are from Canada.
@HerbJon Says:
Loneliness today is a growing and already catastrophically bad in many ways.
@zaunaura Says:
Inane Comment Time: Jonathan, Jordan, Steven…hah all their names end in 'n'…
@LeeCarlson Says:
The issue is that true journalism is about factual reporting where it appears that Dr. Pinker is talking about "sensationalist" journalism. That is a bit like comparing black coffee to some form of barista iced-coffee drink.
@marciukspuks5353 Says:
my god how stupid peterson is. really feel for the two guys having to explain things to him over and over the most basic concepts. zero understanding of skinner, now that is a REAL psychologist!
@gorkmusic Says:
Steven Pinker is the fucking man, the king of sobering with data and debunking narrative bias.
@kindly4real Says:
23:00
The tree in the Garden was not "the tree of knowledge". It was "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Judgment is the fruit produced from the knowledge of good and evil. Attachment is the eating part. Forgiveness is spitting the fruit up and grace is leaving it on the Tree, reserving judgment or at least our attachment to it.
@iammisanthrope7764 Says:
Grapes are poisonous to dogs.
@iammisanthrope7764 Says:
Its so funny how the three of them are trying so hard to sound intellectual.🤣
@ibelieve3111 Says:
Hey
@anonygent Says:
I would say that the God-shaped hole in our psyches, if it's not filled by God or gods, is going to be filled with one of two things: the state as God, or the self as God. I don't think I need to point out that both options lead to terrible outcomes. (I speak of those in the West... China has gone without a God for a long time, so I can't speak to their experience. Although it's interesting that one branch of Buddhism, a fundamentally atheistic religion, turned Buddha into a god.)
@DonnaBrooks Says:
I'm pausing in the middle to comment: What a great discussion! I learned many things I didn't know from Dr. Pinker & Dr. Haidt had such great insights about our current situation being unique. I said, "Wow!" many times during this video! I will have to listen to this again when I can take NOTES and mark timestamps. Honestly, at this point, IDK whether to feel better or worse about the current state of the our institutions, liberal democracy, and the media. I think Dr. Haidt summed it up well. Dr. Pinker is probably right that we will self-correct, but not in the near future. It might get even worse before it gets better. And I worry about all the damage woke ideology will do until enough people leave that cult & put a stop to it. What an interesting tub-of-war between optimism & pessimism!
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