This episode was recorded on October 18th 2021.
Mustafa Akyol joins me to discuss Muslim history and tradition. We touch on subjects like Jesus Christ from a Christian and Muslim perspective, the Virgin Mary's role in the Quran, separation of church and state as an ideology, the dangers of literalism when facing religious texts, and much more.
Mustafa Akyol is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute's Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity, where he focuses on the intersection of public policy, Islam, and modernity. He's contributed as an opinion writer for the New York Times since 2013, covering politics and religion in the Muslim world.
Published by W. W. Norton, his 2011 book, "Islam Without Extremes: A Muslim Case for Liberty," presents a strong argument for Islamic liberalism. The book was long-listed for the Lionel Gelber Prize for best nonfiction book. It was also praised by The Financial Times as "a forthright and elegant Muslim defense of freedom." His other books include "Reopening Muslim Minds" and "The Islamic Jesus."
Find Mustafa's most important book, "Reopening Muslim Minds," here
https://amazon.com/Reopening-Muslim-Minds-Freedom-Tolerance
His book "The Islamic Jesus," discussed in this episode, is at
https://amazon.com/Islamic-Jesus-Became-Prophet-Muslims
Find a free PDF of his book "Why, As a Muslim, I Defend Liberty" at
https://libertarianism.org/books/why-muslim-i-defend-liberty
Or visit his page at the Cato Institute:
https://cato.org/people/mustafa-akyol
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[00:00] Intro
[00:18] Introducing Mustafa Akyol
[02:47] Regarding the separation of church and state, what do Christian and Muslims have in common?
[10:36] What are some similarities between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?
[11:05] "I see the world's history, and I see a Judeo-Christian/Islamic history because it's all Abrahamic monotheism starting at Judaism." Mustafa Akyol
[11:46] What the Three Abrahamic religions have in common—monotheism, rooting in the same tradition; and strange insistence on a book as the bedrock of culture
[12:45] Unique ideas of religious and societal tolerance through different ages in history
[21:10] The connection Jesus and Islam
[28:45] What is the totalitarian impulse?
[29:30] "I think it is an understatement of the severity of the totalitarian problem to attribute it merely to the religious." - Jordan Peterson
[31:27] Critiquing the inevitable flaws of the purely secular state. The benefits of a higher law on the unification of people and not deifying human rulers
[34:59] "There is another value in Sharia law—[it] was separate from the rulers, even above the rulers." - Mustafa Akyol
[39:35] Briefly touching on the ruling class in Saudi Arabia. A brief history of the Wahhabi's rise to power, and how a group of extreme thinkers gained more power than would have been naturally possible
[45:36] Bad Ideas from the West are, in fact, devastating
[48:45] A modern Muslim's take on religion, power, and the birth of Islam with the prophet Muhammad
[55:15] "The whole thorny moral problem of what to do when you are being oppressed is not something let's say as a species we have figured out." - Jordan Peterson
[01:01:32] What is Mustafa's goal in studying Islam?
[01:06:49] A study of how God's commandments are delivered as a teacher or legislator
[01:18:51] "The inherent problem with literalism in interpretation. The perspective of the reader creates so much of the truth in this model that they can then impose on the world around them." - Jordan Peterson
[01:26:20] Regarding reason and Sharia law, one group has said that Sharia indicates what's inherently right and wrong in the world. Another group, that it only creates that difference through the imposition
[01:27:01] Mary's role in the Quran and Islamic tradition
[01:31:29] The influence of gnostic Christian gospels on Muhammad in Mustafa's opinion. The odd state of the Jewish Christians who were accepted by neither side
[01:35:16] Final questions on Jesus Christ from Christian and Muslim perspectives
[01:43:35] Wrapping up
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#Quran #Islam #Liberalism
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Peterson is truly one of the greatest intellectuals of the day. He must get well.
@SecurityAt11 Says:
It is disturbing when anyone wishes to force feed certain beliefs and behaviors upon another human being.
@SecurityAt11 Says:
A number of ordinary working class are very disturbed by this abruptly, sudden rise of Muslim Islamism in all world locations. They see their religion is an inflexible set of laws whose purpose to judge others. No one is allowed simple peace from the Islamists. Many people wish to live a simple life without threats hanging over their heads. Other religions do not impose on other faiths. Incomprehensible.
@SecurityAt11 Says:
Mr Peterson is a brilliant speaker.
@SecurityAt11 Says:
Excellent viewpoints of Mr. Peterson.
@Think_pls Says:
One problem I see which both Christians and Muslims deny
Is calling there book perfect
I mean please, it has flaws they are not perfect
No one can mention this
I think we can start from there , and extrapolate from this all the good ideas in it
@Think_pls Says:
Finally understanding Islam , due to this man way of talking and presenting
@georgerodriguez4207 Says:
Good discussion
@013ursus Says:
There will be no peace in the world as long as the Muslims countries brainwashed their children of hatred to those who don't believe in their stupid religion,thats happening in the past and of today!!!
@wahabnassery2097 Says:
Beautiful program !
@NC_-ew5ck Says:
This is an extremely valuable conversation, a major stepping stone. Many more of these!
@joshfonua2306 Says:
Wow how bless we are listening to these two great mind discussing and reasoning each other on subjects worth listening to. I hope Mustafa achieved what you really in the Religion of Islam as a whole
@wanabeitt7692 Says:
This is still such an important interview
@ribkan4759 Says:
32:50
@ribkan4759 Says:
12:21
15:57
17:12
30:23
30:45
31:02😊😅😂
@zakafarah3266 Says:
I’ll recommend you all to watch a guy called Shahid bolsen. Channel Middle nation
@BusterMontana-gg4pk Says:
we as a collective race as a peopleshould do away with religion and just use the term spiritual and not religious
@Sofronofx Says:
So many good things about this conversation. Pure dialogue with no apologetics. It was great to finally learn about Islam with a somewhat Christian lens. The early Islamic doctrines, theologies, internal islamic debates, schisms, & some state craft etc….
@faridahmad2013 Says:
Mustafa Akyol @... Very good discussion but describing Jesus as if similar to Qur'an didn't soundn justified... Quran is speech of Allah.. Jesus is His command..When He says Kun (Be) things happen and so was Jesus... Please read sura kahf verse.. ٌٰSay: 'If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, the sea would surely be spent before the Words of my Lord are spent, even if We brought its like for replenishment. ' (109)۔۔. Words of God are uncountable and infinite..
@LectioDivina333 Says:
Mustafa Akyol, what a great humble Muslim. I really appreciate your discussion with Jordan Peterson. Blessings tp you both from an Orthodox Catholic 🙏🙏🙏
@amandasnadel Says:
What a beautiful conversation!🤝🙏
@None2o Says:
Liberals are evil . They are forcing lgbt on us. Plz don't try to reform Islam otherwise not a single traditional Muslim will believe.
@khunza2009 Says:
@1:15:53 The verse from Quran referred here is from Surah Az-Zumar 39 verse 18 "those who listen to what is said and follow the best of it.1 These are the ones ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah, and these are ˹truly˺ the people of reason."
This verse can apply to anything that a person listens to, and it can also apply specifically to the Quran—meaning, for example, those who read verses about retaliation and other verses about forgiveness, then they opt for forgiveness.
@AmirHassanBathaee Says:
That was phenamonal!!! There are so many good things in the conversation, that I have been thinking of for so many years and always talk to my fellow Christian friends in Canada. My next mission has been to read Bible and Torah. I am pretty sure there are a lot of similarities. I hope Christians get a chance to read Quran too
@ibelieve3111 Says:
Hello
@esrefcelebi Says:
With all respect, the verses that Akyol refers to as abrogated, they were not abrogated. My religion to me yours to you remained applicable all the time. That's how Christians and jews survived under Ottoman rule, having their own judicial system active all the time among themselves. That is what an empire does. Main mistake he does that he gets an anachronistic approach to those empires as tee nation states of the day. Conquests are done to open the respective land to Islam, which is actually to guarantee that Muslims are not persecuted there as it comes to the justification of the conquests. And it has been justified in this way. Yet politically centralized power ended up making the wealth of the conquered land available for the rest of the empire, with or without consent of the non-Muslim inhabitants of it. And this is exactly where Akyol starts to derail with his anachronism. I suppose he needs to take an improved perspective to come out of that dilemma. To me he still cannot go out of it, because he assumes a secular state, which Sets and applies its judicial system intentively overlooking what God wants his people to be ruled. Well a secular state would recognize fornication as just, normal, respected act, I mean not to be tolerated but admitted as equal to the sex inside the marriage. This however translates as blasphemy (see the difference between committing a sin and denying a sinfulness of a sinful act). And that is the cul de sac what Akyol heads into. Whether he sees it or not, I don't know because I just read one of his books, which is Islam without Extremes, where he advocates a secular government.
@questx411 Says:
The question is does following Ceasars rules override gods rules? I believe most states will say yes.
@MichaelBrownII-rz4io Says:
0:11 That is EXACTLY how a texts works- when it’s not written in English. I’m only 11 seconds in and here Jordan goes, as much as I do respect and admire his work, is completely OFF. When it comes to the Hebrew language, Paleo Hebrew I might add, some may call it Phoenician Canaanite, which is fine, WAS A STRAIGHT FORWARD, NOT OPEN-FOR- INTERPRETATION- language. And so is Arabic. What it says is what it says and what it means. Period. The Bible you know today is a TRANSLITERATION. I mean it’s written in the first few pages of the book lol. That’s why you have THE BLUE LETTER BIBLE, the HEBREW LEXICON, and THE TARGUMS. Much better understanding. You go back to the HEBREW you will see that what is written is written. Hebrew is a pure language. You don’t “spell” those words. There is no to/too/two or may/ MAY you see where I’m going with this?
@anr31691 Says:
I'm a Christian, I had a conversation with a Muslim coworker today about similarities between the two religions. I disagree fundamentally in submission - I believe that Christ made us free through Him. Also, the book of Revelations is the last book in the Bible. A clear ending. I don't believe that Islam is a continuation of Christianity. The Bible is complete. Through Jesus, you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God, Christ and the Holy Spirt. A Trinity, but One.
@samiware1704 Says:
The noble kaliphate Othman (may god be pleased with him) says "verily, Allah restrains by the ruler what HE (Allah) doesn't restrain by the Holy Quran"
@tariktarek5835 Says:
What does the Quran mean by " word of God"? Well, away from the islamic tradition, if you invistigate the quranic text, the word of God is to be differentiated from the revelations of God or His speeches. The bible and the Quran that we read are speeches of God revealed to His prophets and messengers at different times. On the other hand, I am a word of God, you are a word of God; an electron is a word of God; the punishment of hell fire is a word of God 39:71... it is the word or the command " be" as in " let there be light" . The light did not instantly manifest into existence but " be and it BECOMES". The word of God is a physical objective existence outside the human mind that evolves through space-time... therefore, you cannot count the words of God as God knows how many things He has created or He is creating 18:109.
When the Quran says that Jesus is a word of God, it is to confirm that he was a creation of God and that he was in no way divine. The Quran explains that the situation of Jesus is like that of Adam. God created ( abstract design) Adam from dust and THEN He said to him be and he BECOMES 3:59. Jesus, is the result of a mutation that happened to the genital organ of Mother Mary 66:12 who by the way was the only female prophet known in the Quran...
Jesus was conceived and then born and raised to BECOME a man... the words of God are truth, meaning they are real things...
Jesus being a spirit from God, according to the quranic expression, means that everything that Jesus said and did was a revelation from God. Jesus is the Gospel of the kingdom...
For further information about these topics, please consult the works of Dr. Muhammad Shahrour...
I say the word needs more of the likes of these great thinkers and more of such conversations and dialogues.
Fun fact is that the Quran surely acknowledges the Jews and Christians as older sects of Islam and older ways or versions of Islam....
@zatoichiable Says:
Islam is like the latest Windows operating system... it is built for modern times and built within it adaptability to ensure it never becomes obsolete... its principles is based on LIMITS or boundaries and maintaining within the limits gives freedom to mankind to move progressively without being extreme ...
@BilalMahmoodCZ Says:
Hello @jordan. How difficult is it for you to get a hold of Quran, read it and try to understand? just like you would read a book per day. Just wanted to know how difficult would it be for you to do the same with Quran?
@apoorvsalar9452 Says:
War was a response to persecution LMAO
Lying piece of crap
@sirakayakomzin3926 Says:
1:42:20 this gave me goosebumps. It just clicked!
@aftabnooruddin Says:
A deeply satisfying conversation. Personally I grappled with these issues. Glad to know thinkers are engaging this lovely enlightening people of monotheistic religions.
@hairypotter94 Says:
Imam Omar Sulaiman next please
@asherclub Says:
Jordan respectful, the straight question that he wish to ask him is how you explain the 4,300 terror attack around the world in the name of Islam since 9/11?
@rehanaflowerinjannah4499 Says:
“There is a recognition in the Qur’an that there are circumstances and situations that cannot be alleviated and which even the strongest human beings cannot bear. In the Qur’an, the most blessed woman ever created is the Blessed Virgin Mary (May God’s blessing be upon her). God recalls in the Qur’an: And when the angels said, ‘O Mary, God has preferred you, and made you pure; He has preferred you above all women of the worlds. (Qur’an, The Family of ‘Imran, 3:42)
2. And yet in the Qur’an, even the Blessed Virgin (pbuh), during the pain of contractions, prayed: “. . . Would that I had died before this, and was as nothing, utterly forgotten!” (Qur’an, Mary-Maryam, 19:23) That is to say there are conditions where people can and do suffer intolerable pain through no fault of their own, be it in illness; in injury; in thirst; starvation; in fear; in heat or cold; or in humiliation; in physical disability; in old age; in sadness or loneliness; in madness; or, as in this case, simply in child bearing or birth. But it is highly significant to note that the state chosen to illustrate this situation in the Qur’an is childbirth, even though it is a question of the birth of so glorious a child as Jesus Christ ﷺ, the Messiah (The Anointed). “(Excerpt from “A thinking person’s guide to truly happy life.” -Dr. Prince Ghazi of Jordan, philosopher)
@rizwanshaukat5654 Says:
I applaud peterson for this conversation. And I applaud him for saying not to take everything literal
@vikingsrevenge1 Says:
It's been a while since I read the Quran but I don't think Mary gave birth under a tree I think that's where the angel told her she would have a son through God not a big deal just saying though
he wouldn’t understand like Allah told Prophet that if u tell them it don’t tell them they r not believer
@zohrapeni3196 Says:
why Jordan peterson don’t understand that Christian’s books r written by human and Quran is word of God this is the major difference
@abdelrazek5258 Says:
For mr. Peterson and his guests with all due respect you want real answers ask the people of knowledge in the subject matter reach out to dr. Zakir naik or Yusuf Estes I can guarantee you you will get an answer
@abdelrazek5258 Says:
Having some books behind you in the video does not make you a scholar go back to the alphabets in Arabic that's a good start for you
@abdelrazek5258 Says:
And you can read more about Muslim scholars and before you criticize anyting in the holy Quran you need to master the Arabic language so you can better understand what words really means
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