This episode was recorded on September 8th 2021.
Saifedean Ammous is an expert on Bitcoin with a PhD from Columbia University. He joins Dr. Peterson to discuss decentralization, different schools of economics, the Fiat vs. Bitcoin standards, and much more.
Dr. Ammous is the author of The Bitcoin Standard, widely considered the essential book on the economics of Bitcoin. He also hosts a podcast of the same name. His new book, The Fiat Standard, should be out in November.
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Find Saifedean here: @Saifedean
https://twitter.com/saifedean
Or on his website here: https://saifedean.com/
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Shownotes
[00:18] Intro
[02:34] What are hard monetary assets?
[06:13] The argument for bitcoin being the best hard money ever created
[09:11] "Bitcoin only has users... no admins. There is nobody with a master key" - Saifedean Ammous
[10:36] How the Bitcoin network functions using "consensus parameters"
[15:49] "The way that Bitcoin came about seems... virtually impossible to believe" - Jordan Peterson
[18:27] Other schools of economics (Austrian) vs. the most common today (Keynesian)
[20:46] "So the Austrian school of economics... tilts you more towards an appreciation of non-centrally controlled, distributed networks, and emphasis on the individual actor" - JP
[23:25] Paul Samuelson and communist economic expectations of centralized planning post-WW2
[25:27] Dr. Ammous' academic background
[27:14] Climate change. The push towards central planning, implying certain people or groups know the exact consequences and solutions to future economic developments
[29:41] "I've been struck by the problem of unintended consequences and the irreducible complexity of things. We can talk about the problem of climate change, but those words are incredibly deceiving" - JP
[34:16] Highlighting the crucial role of the entrepreneur in Austrian economics
[40:46] Saifedean reflects on the views held by the central bank, governments, and mainstream economists on money—as opposed to Bitcoin's structuring and the Austrian school of thought
[41:43] "From the Austrian perspective, money is a product of the market and not the invention of the state. The state's meddling in money... is irrational and cannot succeed for the same reasons central planning does not succeed" - SA
[45:50] Overview of Dr. Ammous' book The Fiat Standard
[54:40] Current inflation in Western democracies. The devastating effect of hyperinflation on the average person
[58:15] "Money is an incredible technology for lowering our time preference" - SA
[58:59] "The 20th century was a global trainwreck of watching the money preference rise. Generation after generation... witnessed their money devalue" - SA
[01:02:32] Why some efforts in energy production are misguided
[01:06:39] The Fiat Standard—our current system
[01:10:29] Why are we allowing people to mine bitcoin?
[01:12:46] The genius that went into the production of the Bitcoin code
[01:23:14] The crazy reality of decision-making at climate change panels
[01:26:36] Fiat-based currency jobs and the Zoom warriors disconnected from the physical world
[01:31:09] "A lot of the problems of the 20th century, in my opinion, have their roots in highly inflationary fiat currency" - SA
[01:31:18] Covering some of the common objections against Bitcoin
[01:39:45] "We are always going to find more reasons to print money" - SA
[01:41:43] Ammous' online learning platform
[01:48:29] The growth of Saifedeen.com and the parameters attributed to its success
[01:50:05] The possibility of decentralizing societal accreditation
[01:50:21] "I've talked to seriously wise academics who know that there is almost zero financial knowledge in universities [today]... There is tremendous residual value, however, in the accreditation" - JP
[01:56:18] Wrapping up
#Crypto #FiatStandard #Bitcoin #JordanPeterson #Decentralization
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1:08, creating money out of thin air just by having a lending license ... mind-blowing
@mariuserasmus4774 Says:
The one BIG red flag of Bitcoin still remain: Bitcoin value lies in and measured in Fiat currency only. No one wants Bitcoin they love seeing the value in Fiat numbers in the market. (contradiction to being a currency of its own valuesupposedly detached from Fiat)
Without Fiat value Bitcoin is worth less than nothing.
@franciskaranja6974 Says:
Enjoying every bit of it at the end of 2025
@frans.nadeak Says:
👍👍👍
@cryptoidmonkey3985 Says:
ORIGINAL Bitcoin is NOT BTC BTC is FAKE bitcoin. It's a scam coin with no intrinsic value and no utility. It's too expensive to transact with, it's useless as electronic cash as originally intended, and it is NOT digital gold. It's purely a speculation coin that is ultimately unsustainable. No utility equals NO VALUE. BSV is the ORIGINAL bitcoin that has unbounded utility and speed - that can actually be used as peer-to-peer CASH. BTC needs to crash and burn !
@3Timothy_4-7 Says:
The world simply needs a few strategically placed Austrian-school economists. Javier and Saifedean are my nominees.
@EdMoneys Says:
this episode is timeless
@DavidHughes-hv7rl Says:
Thanks!
@john_zechmeister Says:
I do not like this name Immaculate Conception to be used for money. Only Immaculate Conception is Most Holy Vergin Mary who immaculately conceved Lord Jesus Christ, Son of Living God.
@maribethcondrillon4641 Says:
Im.looking abgoid man and honest
@abubakrhassan5487 Says:
Dr. Peterson's way of deconstructing concepts and articulating points is just remarkable
@korbication90 Says:
Hi,
Does anyone of you know if there is a follow-up interview or even a second conversation between J.P. and S.Ammous ?
This Video will soon be 4 years old (already middle childhood)
@SempiternamFortisEtLiber Says:
Video title is entirely out of line and blasphemous. The Immaculate Conception is a title of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and refers specifically to the fact that she was born innocent and free of sin.
JBP, I've always liked your work, but this is distasteful, and completely out of line.
@sanpit Says:
🔑 Key Takeaways with Timestamps:
Bitcoin’s Unique Immutability & Decentralization (00:05–01:05)
Bitcoin has no admins or central authority—only users.
Its consensus parameters haven’t changed since 2009.
Anyone could have mined from the beginning; no insiders or privileged early access.
"Immaculate Conception" of Bitcoin (00:34, 11:09)
Ammous refers to Bitcoin's launch as an “immaculate conception” because it had no pre-mine or favored entities—everyone had equal opportunity from day one.
Bitcoin as the Hardest Money (03:10–04:20)
Defined as hardest due to its fixed supply and resistance to inflation.
Hardness means it’s the most difficult to increase supply—unlike fiat or even gold.
Austrian Economics vs Mainstream Economics (21:23, 42:40)
Austrian economics emphasizes subjective value and individual autonomy.
Mainstream economics sees money as a state-controlled tool, whereas Austrians view it as a market-evolved phenomenon.
Failures of Economic Forecasting (25:10, 28:30)
Criticizes economists like Paul Samuelson for wrongly predicting the USSR would overtake the US economy.
Draws parallels to modern centralized climate policy and technocratic overreach.
Entrepreneurship and Evolution (35:37–39:36)
Entrepreneurs act like evolutionary agents—many fail, but a few succeed and shape the world.
Innovation involves experimentation and selection, not central planning.
Hyperinflation and Fiat Failures (56:41–1:00:12)
Highlights real-world failures of fiat currencies—like in Lebanon.
Inflation destroys saving, planning, and trust in the future.
Bitcoin Mining and Energy Use (1:10:26–1:20:15)
Mining requires energy, but Bitcoin uses excess or stranded energy.
Unlike traditional industries, Bitcoin can go to the energy source, making it more efficient.
Altcoins vs Bitcoin (1:33:42–1:40:31)
Most altcoins are easy money—can be altered or inflated by insiders.
Bitcoin’s resistance to change is a feature, not a bug.
Education and Incentive Problems (1:43:29–1:50:39)
Critiques modern university systems for being bureaucratic and credential-focused.
Ammous created an online platform to teach Austrian economics and Bitcoin more effectively.
@parish-royaltyadventure5881 Says:
Very valuable conversation to be had here
@intanhidayat6064 Says:
We used to suffer from problems, but we now suffer from solution. - Friedrich Hayek.
@Dale-i2k Says:
Out of the hundreds of Bitcoin podcasts I’ve watched, this was up there with the best. I got a better sense of the bigger picture and context for Bitcoin.
@boomerman1100 Says:
Bitcoin does have centralized management, I mean who else set the 21 million cap? (arbitrarily). Power goes out for any reason and bitcoin is nothing. Just another excuse for the hype around new tech.
@Cralcker Says:
@51:00 they got very close lol
@kirkD9349 Says:
Excellent interview. Thank you for Ammous' perspective on many Bitcoin issues. I learned a lot.
@stpnpl Says:
I think it would be very interesting if you could talk with Michael Saylor...
@AKsArchiveforLife Says:
Doc Ps ability to grasp this so quickly illustrates his extreme intelligence.
@deborahflak2958 Says:
Thank you for asking the questions that others just don’t!
@backcountyrpilot Says:
Unlike nearly every other investment, everyone on Earth has the opportunity to buy Bitcoin at the same price.
It is the ONLY store of wealth ever created that has an absolutely limited supply and fixed rate of production.
If you do not buy Bitcoin now, you have no one to blame but yourself.
@Yotaciv Says:
100 million by late 2060s-early 2070s.
@MattB-j8j Says:
Beautiful and educational discussion! Thank you both!
@neilpatton7174 Says:
That value is believed, or is subjective, is a core tenant of Maps of Meaning. Peterson asserts the axiom of action as did Mises, and he didn’t know it.
@jean-paulbaudet2951 Says:
Can confirm Jordan the ridges on the edge of a coin is in fact to prevent filing down of coins. Fairly recent invention. It’s called Knurl
@jnkoa33 Says:
I saw some of your interview with Michael Saylor. Cringe!
@meyroakabigrem1679 Says:
This clip aged very well. Bravo gentlemen.
@Mkay460 Says:
Great Conversation!
@RoscoeConsidine Says:
Jordan I don't know but step finance continues to rise, showing why it’s one of the most reliable assets
@Kudos_AI Says:
Can quantum computing be considered a threat to Blockchain security ?
@DMathew-m5i Says:
It is thrilling to watch you become orange pilled!
I also love all the ideas this conversation gave me in terms of how I might finally find a way to help as a non-tech savvy bitcoin wannabe maxi.
I think the incentive structure actually fixes more things than most people are aware of yet. It is extremely exciting for 98% of the population.
Thank you both for contributing to the decentralization of education. What culture wouldn't want their entire society to become educated? Oh...a ponzi that preferres to remain as such.
I do believe this type of education will scale. There are more and more parents who do NOT want to send their children to these mind virus schools which are increasing in potential dangers beyond random shootings of our drugged culture, but also nor.the.icreasing.physical dangers due to open borders.
And dare I say, even if neither of the above issues were a concern, there are many questions regarding what exactly is being taught whilst the children are trapped and being poisoned with addictive "food"?
I best stop there.
Thank you thank you and Namaste' !
@AlphaConviction Says:
I've read *ALL* of Saifedean's books & I can confirm they are phenomenal
@AlphaConviction Says:
Saifedean the GOAT
@Jaffasoft Says:
Genius code that destroys many peoples financial lives because they get caught up in gambling, hype, influencers and ppl that talk Bitcoin up, not to mention the thousands of other coins that are out there promising riches and this and that etc, forums and chat groups and YouTubes encouraging people to buy it. It has ruined my financial life and will be ruining many others. The energy wasted in exchanges and apps and phones just to use it is phenomenal does nothing to help global warming. I think what you will find is the price curve will eventually peak and once the rich and wealthy that could hold bitcoin for a long time will eventually not be able to steal any more money from the traps the common people get in with it and eventually it will collapse. Many downfalls these so called intelligent people do not even mention.
Think about it in a simple way. Imagine everyone puts all there money in one big pool as big as the ocean eventually it will not move up or down much and can no longer go up any more and then ppl will get bored with years of no increases and start deciding to get out and then they all want to take it out and get rich. Ummm its not mathematically possible. A percentage will be up and a percentage will be down by all sorts of various amounts. For every tall story you hear of someone that made millions in Bitcoin or another coin, meme coins etc there is thousands that lost little amounts each for that one person to win. You don't hear the lost stories because they don't like to say it. I haven't even mentioned the lost money trapped in the code forever because or death, mishaps, forgotten passwords, exchange hacks, corrupt exchanges, the list goes on and on. Mt Gox, FTX and the dozens of smaller hacks you don't even hear about. Then the crime that will eventually happen when ppl will hold you at gun point or rob your house find you 12 word seed phrase and steal you bitcoin.
BTC seems all great and convenient and cool that it can be sent world wide in an instant and be our ow bank and all this is great but it is flawed with many problems also much more then the transitional banking system. Its not much difference to gov tax by gov investing in BTC all they end up doing is getting money that other people loose with the dilution that they buy btc to get rich in short term etc or they get caught up in trading and various other life reasons.
How do you know that Satoshi does not come along and decide to sell his holdings. he is entitled to and could if he decides that would destroy the market for years again and all the people holding btc get robbed again and again until people get the jack of it all and its complexities to use and they stay out forever. Have you ever looked at how complicated it is just to use a wallet and buy just one coin, i ended up with 10 different coins in my wallet and i don't even know what most of them are. And how difficult it is to follow and track these coins is insanity and incredibly confusing to keep track off. The common people will never take it on.
@brennelement6451 Says:
This is probably the best video I've ever seen on the subject of money, and I say that as someone who has spent a large amount of time going down the rabbit holes of bitcoin, economics, liberty, gold, history and government. Dr Peterson's probing questions, intelligent responses, and top-notch active listening are simply a masterclass in conversation. What a treasure to have the opportunity to watch.
@DianaLuiz-o1z Says:
I wish i learnt most of these principles about seven years ago. A lot of people have been trapped strongly in the matrix-- Go to school, get a job, and then slave your whole life. Many miss out on life-changing information that could have great effect on their finances. I played with the stock market sometime in 2020, and I was surprised at how well it turned out. I want to put in $90k more into the market. I heard people are making really great returns despite the downturn. Any recommendations?
@aubreywestern5606 Says:
What is wrong with this guy? How did Columbia give this guy a degree? Holy shit, this guy just doesn't understand economics. Wow. What an idiot. Doesn't even get close to understanding large miners at marginal profitability. He's completely missing all the real vulnerabilities.
Failing to understand the need for a flexible and slightly inflationary currency is the first sign of incompetence. Absolutely do not listen to anything this charlatan says.
Satoshi's work wasn't new. He doesn't understand economics, he's an austrian zealot. Bitcoin isn't a currency, it's a digital vault, and it has annoyingly low utility.
Getting sidetracked by climate change.... can't stick to the topic.... these guys are just lost in the sauce.
@bjørnr1984 Says:
its so fascinating so see Jordan Petersons brain work, he thinks when Saife is talking to him, and he is processing what he talks about. Great episode
@FlossieBlack Says:
My wagers are on INFTY3 Token. It contains all the necessary components for success!
@SumikoLangston Says:
INFTY3 Token is the first token that governs itself and not owners or other people, making it the smartest token in the universe.
@JoleneSpooner Says:
Automatic algorithms = no paper hands, just 🚀
@katecardinale787 Says:
After this discussion, I sure hope y’all purchased some bitcoin for yourselves. We’re still early.
@dd.oliver Says:
SATOSHI NAKAMOTO - SAmsung, TOSHIba, Nokia, MOTOrola. There it is the mysterious figure
@molimba Says:
absolutely brilliant, loved every minute!
@Forssman64 Says:
Outstanding discussion and worth more than many degrees..
@grigorejomiru8820 Says:
A very comprehensive video about Bitcoin ecosystem. Lots of good things about mining and Austrian economics❤️🙏
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