Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Andrew Doyle discuss the intentional irrationality of far-left doctrines using religious rhetoric despite the absence of God, their paramount desire to dismantle societal structures, regardless of need or merit, the argument for transcendence inherent in the pursuit of art, and how woke culture stifles genuine expression, forcing dogma in the place of fundamental truths.
Andrew Doyle is a writer, broadcaster and comedian. His latest book is The New Puritans: How the Religion of Social Justice Captured the Western World. He is also the author of Free Speech and Why It Matters, and has written two books under the name of his satirical character Titania McGrath � Woke: A Guide to Social Justice and My First Little Book of Intersectional Activism.
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:25) Intro
(1:49) Do 'left' and 'right' wing mean anything anymore?
(4:27) Activists or caricatures?
(5:49) Left wing authoritarianism
(12:55) Hitler's temperament, everyone pays
(13:37) The spirit of Cain
(17:21) All the hallmarks of a fundamentalist religion
(20:35) Lens of presuppositions, in the place of God
(25:24) Milton's Satan, power claims
(28:47) Querying society, emotionality and whim
(35:20) Teaching students to protest, the infantile world
(38:10) Where does the left go too far?
(44:05) Outsourced thinking
(45:20) Dawkins, the aftermath of the death of God
(50:00) Why the 'woke' movement appeals to academics
(52:08) Do the arts move us toward a unitary spirit?
(58:54) No great art has come out of the social justice movement
(59:45) Balancing the need to survive with honest expression
(1:04:36) An artist must submit to their muse
(1:05:29) Most people are not great artists, functional hacks
(1:06:26) Sacrificing the ideal, theorists of resentment
(1:10:08) Losing the point of Shakespeare, the power of Macbeth
(1:13:44) The greatest form of tragedy, why the Passion is so impactful
(1:16:11) Harrowing hell, realizing our own malevolence
(1:20:18) The refusal of understanding
(1:24:03) When you bring the margin to the center, the snake that eats its own tail
(1:27:40) Sex reassignment is an affront to the gay community
(1:31:28) Gender ideologies have taken control
(1:34:07) The unnecessary expansion of Pride
(1:35:50) This is a spiritual battle at its core
(1:38:04) Kids pushing back through parody? Identifying as a moon
(1:40:46) This fervor might burn itself out
(1:41:30) The sudden end of COVID panic, the Canadian Freedom Convoy
(1:42:48) Will today's politicians look back and regret their role?
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At about 52 mins: describes the Greta Thunberg situation perfectly.
@colinstewart1432 Says:
Probably the most reasonable and relevant conversation I've seen in the last 3 years. Excellent work.
@smartsailinsinbad8707 Says:
Any self respecting sciencetific minded person wouldn't be so stupid as to fall for the million gender ideology nor the identity politics ideology. And as am athiest I refuse to be lumped in with the athiests they are tlaking about because I think it's a terrible idea to replace a lack of religion with those types of fundamentalist ideologies. I think as an athiest I feel similarly to the gay people who have disdain for the activists that claim to represent them. They get lumped in with those idiots and I get lumped in with the idiot athiests and they aren't represented of the athiests like myself who view things very differently I don't replace my lack of religion. And I'm not a materialist athiest at all. I just live responsibly and morally and i find more value in nonmaterialistic things that materalistic things . And I've been plenty able to find our pose and meaning to life. U fortunately I agree that most athiests do do exactly what they were tlaking about. And I agree that it's a huge mistake. I as an athiest do get incredibly frustrated with other athiests for similar reasons to what they talked about here.
@spencergreen6980 Says:
I fell to sleep watching something else and woke up just as this video was starting. Can't believe it has taken me a year to become aware that a conversation between you two existed on here. Great talk. Perfect balance of profundity and conviviality. Thank you both.
@omitomiti4198 Says:
I can listen to Professor Peterson for hours and hours, and I won't get tired or bored.
@JosephSmith-ex7du Says:
Doyle and Peterson are more public speakers who believe free speech only belongs to comedians and public speakers. That groups who are mocked and ridiculed by comedians should just take it. Why?! Those idiots need to be reminded that groups who are mocked and ridiculed also have free speech rights they can use to challenge those comedians and speakers. By the way, based on what he says, Peterson certainly sounds like a psychopathic narcissist.
@jameswardle4770 Says:
Interesting point about gatekeepers in artistic industries all being captured including the critics. That’s why Hannah Gadsby’s Nanette has a 100% critic score versus a 26% audience score. Truth is us commoners just don’t buy into woke.
@Darko1.0 Says:
Lol, listening to this I'm just thinking, can the left do anything right ?
@guypotvin6943 Says:
It’s about the conscience. The licentiousness is a large part of this. The canceling that occurs when it is talk about negatively, is avoidance of conscience. We all have one. The psychopath too, they just don’t care, they know they are not normal. The left screams that we must accept everything and not only accept but AGREE with it all. And I would propose the reason for the rage is related more to a troubled conscience making them uncomfortable. Which they misinterpret.
@hezkyden Says:
''You’ve heard the caricatures. The Puritans are “haunted by the fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” They are the “killjoys,” the joyless “frozen chosen.” That’s the modern view of the Puritans. The very words Puritan and puritanical are slung about as bits of verbal mud.
The word “Puritan” was coined in the 16th century as a term of abuse. For the average Englishman, there was the Roman Catholic “Papist” on one side, and the “Precisionist” or “Puritan” on the other. The term suggested a nit-picking, holier-than-thou party of men who considered themselves purer than the rest. It was certainly not a fair description: Those it was applied to strove to be pure, but never thought of themselves as pure, as their constant testimony to their own sinfulness and imperfection demonstrates.
Puritanism was a Bible-based movement. Doctrinally, it was a kind of vigorous, joyous Calvinism; experientially, it was warm and contagious and rejoiced in fellowship with God and with the saints; evangelistically, it was active and urgent, yet tender; ecclesiastically, it was centered on the triune God, his worship and service.'' Dr Joel Beeke.
@brianmaney1973 Says:
I'm a bit surprised that Mr. Peterson still believes that the Roman cult DIDN'T establish rat-lines for Adolf and high level Nazis to escape to South America.
@whirloffire Says:
22:45 Religion is the call to be a shepherd. Catholicism tries to Shepherd the masses by centralizing, and many sheep are lost because of the size of the flock
Protestantism calls each person to be a shepherd, and the sheep gather around the Good Shepherd
In a world where good practices are so individually discerned you will know a good shepherd by their fruits.
It is a poor Shepherd indeed who leaves his flock when the wolves come to bay
Thank you Jordan for being a good shepherd.
A joke:
Generalization is the true evil
@whirloffire Says:
22:45 Religion is the call to be a shepherd. Catholicism tries to Shepherd the masses by centralizing, and many sheep are lost because of the size of the flock
Protestantism calls each person to be a shepherd, and the sheep gather around the Good Shepherd
In a world where good practices are so individually discerned you will know a good shepherd by their fruits.
It is a poor Shepherd indeed who leaves his flock when the wolves come to bay
Thank you Jordan for being a good shepherd.
A joke:
Generalization is the true evil
@whirloffire Says:
18:31 in my belief Cis is a slur
My preferred word is hetero
At its core a slur is about the intent
And the intent of Cis is to shame
@dawnbaldwin5919 Says:
We just need to teach children why free speech is important. ❤
@PP-th4ft Says:
There is a question I have not managed to sufficiently answer for myself: Is the modern leftist movement the first large-scalwe collectivist movement or is it the opposite – hyper individualistic? I feel there are arguments for both sides, with mandated diversity inevitably leading to a new form of homogeneity across various aspects of life. On the other hand, however, the concept of intersectionality is also hyper individualistic in its approach. Maybe it's neither or a combination of the two?
@ChelleMEis Says:
Jesus is the answer.
@LordLanceLotLegacies Says:
TLDR People are expressing gratitude for Andrew Doyle and Jordan Peterson's ability to articulate views fearlessly, and are calling for more discussions like this to address the pathologies of woke culture.
@cavscout62 Says:
Traditional “left and right” have been missing since the end of WW-II. Anyone with a functioning brain knows this to be factual and the real question is simply this, do you have the Guts to stand up and call out the insanity of the prevailing “conventional wisdom” that’s anything but?
@t3tsuyaguy1 Says:
I think the reason we seem to require some kind of spiritual and religious framework, is connected to the role emotion plays in our understanding of the world. Emotion seems to be regarded by many as disconnected from our reasoning. It's thought that emotion is "in the way" of precise and accurate thought, that it is a biased and almost dangerous phenomenon, that must be accounted for and corralled and, if possible, eliminated from our analysis. I think this may be catastrophic to our ability to properly understand the world around us. Why? Because our emotions are actually a critical part of our perceptual apparatus.
I find it useful to suggest that emotion is to rationality as the sensation of heat is to vision. It is quite useful to perceive what we call the visible light spectrum as vision. The way those wavelengths of light interact with the environment, makes them particularly useful for perceiving as gradations of "color" _and_ to understand the relative distance between sources. So, we evolved eyes to see. Infrared light is different. It is _not_ particularly useful, most of the time, to perceive infrared light as part of our vision. But it _is_ useful to detect the intensity of the infrared light that is passing through our skin. So, we evolved sensory neurons that report infrared intensity as "heat". We would never say that our sense of heat is useless, simply because it doesn't do a good job of providing us with vision. We understand that it serves a particular purpose. I think our emotions similarly serve a specific perceptual purpose.
We are perpetually bombarded with sensory information, far more than we can possibly pay attention to. As we receive that information, it interacts with our memory, producing myriad points of compare and contrast. Again, there is far too much of this to experience all of it, in real time. I believe our rational mind serves the purpose of experiencing and interpreting the output of our brain which is best understood within a logical framework. That part of our minds was thinking in syllogisms long before we had a name for it. But our emotions deal with the output of our mind that is _not_ best understood within and "if then" style of comprehension. Instead, it provides us with broad conditional understanding. We experience anger when we have detected injustice. We experience sadness when we've detected loss. Anxiety signals danger that is possible, whilst fear signals danger that is certain. Every emotional state can be understood this way. But I believe that is only the surface.
I think the emotional centers of our minds play a pivotal role in how we comprehend deeper more esoteric questions. Anything that can't be simply expressed in a logical framework, perhaps because the scale or the scope is too vast, is instead processed through the same part of our mind that provides emotional experience. Systems of structured thought, like logic and maths, do a fantastic job of augmenting and externalizing our ability to rationally reason. We have not developed similar systems to augment and externalize our ability to emotionally reason. The closest thing we have to that, is religion. Spiritual beliefs are essentially the nascent form of systems like logic and maths, but for the emotional perception of our minds.
I don't believe that the ability of religion to satiate this part of ourselves proves that religion is true, nor suggests that one of our religions _might_ be true. Instead, I believe we have a need to better understand how religion serves our comprehension and our sense of well-being, so that we may develop more deliberate and evolved "spiritual" tools.
@ydatwrh5999 Says:
I'll just leave this here: yadayah
@dermotfitzpatrick5045 Says:
The greatest con by Mainstream Media, Governments and Corporations was convincing wider society that everything is either “Left” or “Right”. By getting you to see things through that prism it stops you from seeing things as they should be seen which is either “Right” or “Wrong”. This then allows them create divisions where there shouldn’t be and get away with the greatest atrocities which they can then pass off as the actions of some imaginary foe.
@NotNowCato1254 Says:
Andrew's clarity of thought and ability to articulate this clearly matches that of Jordan, making for an absorbing, thought-provoking and thoroughly entertaining discussion. Bravo gentlemen 👏
@deyemeracing8795 Says:
It is said that using fear and compulsion is wrong or evil, but that's not necessarily true. When dealing with a young child, you can't just rationalize why not to stick a butter knife in an electrical outlet, or why not to pull on the handle of a pan on a hot stove. First, you force speech ("say you're sorry") and action ("don't touch that!"), and later, you can rationalize with the child.
Many of the elite believe that the idiot masses are like small children that will never grow up, in that they cannot be reasoned with, but must be forced to say and do what they imagine is right. And they, the elite, are the only ones strong and smart and wise enough to do it, and so they must. They are the gods among men, and are morally obligated. And even more fascinating is that many of their worshippers believe it, too, with a twist: that in their own mind, they aren't one of the idiot masses, but everyone around them is.
@bevs9995 Says:
Jordan Petersen says that the single biggest predictor of left wing authoritarian political beliefs is low verbal intelligence, "In our study." Well, where is "his study" ? How large was the sample size? I want to read it, but I dont want to watch all of this.
@JesseKanner Says:
The best way out of intellectual hubris is a pig-headed dedication to curiosity. When smart people stop being curious, they rot intellectually.
@justletmecommentprz Says:
My family has extensive stock assets, over 100k personally of my own, and the markets are doing better than they ever had in our entire lives since the Great Recession under Bush Jr.
Please stop listening to this Trump doomsday shit about the markets. It is literally designed to destabilize the markets so they can point at the democrats and say it’s their fault, instead of trying to make it work under both circumstances. These record highs have happened in spite of wishing for the downfall of the US and world markets just because a certain party isn’t in charge in certain places.
@hulkjelly6876 Says:
Rogan is NOT on the right.
@broimp Says:
What shear joy it was to hear this discussion. I am so lucky and grateful for these great thinkers.
@lickspittle1 Says:
Wait.....Doyle voted for Corbyn? ........were you intoxicated on whiskey or hard drugs at this moment
@plankman6408 Says:
Check your notification bells. The eye of Shadowban is upon us!
@Erik_Danley Says:
Yeah funny how we’ve forgotten the behavior of the left totalitarian regimes during covid. Hmmm. And no, i don’t think so…woke is NOT right wing. Gimme a flippin break. Regarding the repentance at Salem, well does anyone seriously think any liberals will repent from their actions during covid? Ha yeah sure thing
@billanderson1075 Says:
1) Hitler was a Communist and later a National SOCIALIST. 2) Religion is the acknowledgement and consequent worship of a divine being - Social Justice is not a religion. 3) The left/right dynamic is a Communist construct. The world is a triarchy between a) INDIVIDUALISM, b) COLLECTIVISM, and c) AUTHORITARIANISM. In France in 1905 there were Republicans, Socialists and Monarchists. Monarchism largely disappeared after WWI. It is now the DEEP STATE bureaucracy - the uniparty - Bush, Chaney, and Clinton. They are people who think they are smarter than everyone else and should rule thru an enlightened bureaucracy.
@yosolonopuedo Says:
This is pure gold
@CJB333 Says:
I've been seeing a lot more people referring to woke as a secular religion
@cantasar3212 Says:
Dear Dr. Peterson,
I'm from Hatay, a city shattered by an earthquake. I've lost over 100 loved ones, and we're struggling to cope. Your teachings have been my anchor, helping me improve my life for long years. But now, facing this immense tragedy, I'm lost and unable to help myself or my community. I desperately need your guidance to regain clarity and function effectively.
Sincerely,
Can Tasar
@everythingiswhat Says:
I think you gents have laid out a strong case for the great need for faith and religion in all mankind, as it is well within human endeavor to have hope, to love (which is to be selfless), and to have faith in something more than who we are.
@tomf8784 Says:
Absolutely fantastic discussion.
@HansLaurentiusEvents Says:
I'm an atheist, but also I am also opposed to the woke religion - and talk and write about it the last years. So yeah, religious types are not wokies, of course not, god says gays should be killed etc. So they are very conservative, sometimes for good reasons, mostly for bad. Frans de Waal (whom you also spoke to) makes crystal clear that morality is founded in biology, and does not stem from religion at all. Religion is not gonna save us, never has. JP please, I would be happy if u got rid of this religious stuff. Common sense and truth is what we need, and some solidarity and clarity on facts. Not an old or new religion. Our mirror neurones etc. don't need mumbo jumbo and fairytales... Know a lot of nonbelievers who don not fall into any woke trap, and like Sam Harris stated: spirituality can do without religion, and can be paired with reason, but religiousness and reason dont align very well. Surprising this constant flight backwards into religion for a clearly quite intelligent being as you seem to be. We dont need to go back, to get ahead...
@OscarDeltaSierra Says:
The Spanish political philosopher and theologian Juan Donoso Cortes, in his 1851 book “Essays on Catholicism, Liberalism, and Socialism”, predicted that liberalism would inevitably decay into tyrannical atheistical socialism, due to its theological inadequacies. Its a dense and difficult work, but anyone who predicted a political trend 150 years in advance is probably on to something.
@OscarDeltaSierra Says:
Obligate male homosexuality (where men have zero interest in women at all, not the exploitative pederasty that exists amongst otherwise normal men in places like Afghanistan) is almost certainly not genetic, and likely caused by some kind of pathogen. Dr. Gregory Cochran’s blog lays out the arguments for this convincingly and at length.
@AlexMacd1 Says:
I agree that the woke movement is anti-liberal and at best based on misguided concepts. Note though I don't subscribe to a belief as such nor feel the need for it. I trust scientific findings only when they proved to be consistently predictive and stood up to extensive peer review and are backed by physical evidence. I'm not a humanist but nor do I believe in a god or gods because there is not enough evidence to convince me (and I've listened to many arguments). I am simply happy enjoying this life and my freedoms whist I can. Current woke ideologies are divisive and are making life less tolerant, so I oppose them,
@jamesangle7427 Says:
Good interview very informative and inlightning. However I have to pick a bone here. I really do hope you guys are very mistaken in your conclusion that atheists have bought into Wokism. I really don't see it or buy it, atheist that I know don't buy into wokism. Their anti-woke or at Iest In their usual position of being on the sidelines. I wouldn't call myself an atheist I'm an agnostic, However, to insult atheists with Associating them with wokeness, well that hurts and maybe you guys are right maybe I'm wrong, but God, I hope you're not cuz that that's fucked up. and I haven't seen it in my personal experience, but that doesn't mean it's not true. I have a lot of respect for you Dr Jordan Pearson, Randy cuz you have better skills that same just about everything I've ever preached in my lifetime Just you do it more eloquently Then I ever could and you have the power of a PhD behind you. So I of course have to give your thoughts on the association between atheists and wokenes It's due credit. Man I, I want to disagree wholeheartedly disagree. But I can't say I've ever looked at it with a fun biased view or scientific analysis. God I really hope you're wrong. But you definitely giving me something to think about. He usually do just Not in this fashion. Godspeed my friend.
@lisakain1517 Says:
If you dont agree with ALL of the leftist ideologies, you are labeled a far right cultist. Unfortunately you are not permitted to be yourself and have your own ideas
@animeaideus4222 Says:
Absolutely on point. I feel like they capture the current lack of art for the last 10-20 years compared to 40 compared to the previous eras. I especially like the bit of the lack of the divine struggle.
@miloaaron8388 Says:
I think you mean WOKEapedia
@eprespacal1 Says:
Sensational discussion gentleman. Thank you very much.
@lynandrews4160 Says:
Great conversation.
@danabrinkerhoff3825 Says:
Dr. Peterson, if I may recommend reading Francis Schaeffer's works, particularly "How Then Shall We Live" all the best from BC
@brittainwright1 Says:
You hit the nail on the head when you said that this is a spiritual / religious battle. The devil is at work in this world and he is most pleased when no one realizes this whole social degeneration is the direct result of demonic influence on our world.
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